THROUGH THE COMFORTER, WHO ARE THE REAL JEWS IN THE EYES OF GOD?

Fuzzman

As usual you only choose to answer the ones you feel do not "threaten" your intergrity [if there is any left over at all!] It would be great on everyone if you could do the honors by at least trying answering them all where possible. It would naturally work a long ways to mending your "raptured" credibility here.

Back to issues at large.

Debmey wrote: Nope, the teachings of Jesus wasn't found in the Quran at all. Jesus taught much more than the ten commandments.

Don't haggle. The Ten Commandments are found in Quran and that is a God-given fact. So what did Jesus teach the Jews? And from what source was that derivative made? What was the "driving force" behind his teachings?

Debmey wrote: Mohamad could not have been the Comforter then since yu can't even stand by it. Not only did mo praised himself, he accorded priviledges to himself such as taking other people's wives.  

Again you try to cloak the point in question. I never did say Prophet Muhammad was the Comforter but what I did say was that the qualities of the Comforter mentioned by Jesus fits the criteria possessed by Prophet Muhammad. At least in this aspect, as a Moslem, I'm proud to know that the qualities mentioned by Jesus fits my Prophet. Whereas you still have yet to make known your Comforter as promised so in the Bible. So who is your promised Comforter? As surely it cannot be the Holy Spirit or Ghost, because Jesus had genderised the se-x of the Comforter and it is a Man not a Woman. A human living bone and flesh being. Not a aural being whatsoever as you so wish in painting.

Again SHOW PROOF IN QURAN WHERE DID PROPHET MUHAMMAD PRAISED HIMSELF OR RAISED HIS STANDARDSabove all. Don't just talk for the sake of talking. Walk your talk by giving me concrete proof to back your accusations.

The unanswered question posted to you: To make us feel that you are confident of what you know, you have to explain what Jesus meant in John 16:13 when Jesus said that this Comforter, a comfirmed male gender will come after his departure? So where does the Holy Spirit and this male gender fit into the promise of Jesus to the Jews?

I've yet to receive an answer to the above question.

ARI FUZZMAN

Fuzzman

Well Debmey, what's it going to be? Need more time to ponder on a escape route or an exit strategy?

ARI FUZZMAN

Fuzzman

Oh well! at least you guys get to know what Debmey and the likes of Debmey, like TRuth are really made of dontcha? All hot air and nothing in between, that's what?

They can't even begin to explain who the Comforter promised by Jesus to be one to speaks what he hears really is?  Only logical answer would be Prophet Muhamad. Prove me wrong Debmey?!! Hahahahahahahaha.....

ARI FUZZMAN

Fuzzman

John 16:13 TRULY LENDS CREDIBILITY TO CHAPTER 97 OF THE GOSPEL OF BARNABAS.

Prove me wrong Debmey.

ARI FUZZMAN

Fuzzman

Based on the graph below:-

which shows the succession and assimilation of the language of Jesus into other civilizations and the verse of John 16:13 which reads:-
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
Can Debmey answer Fuzzman these simple questions:-
1. Jesus spoke of a successor to complete where HE failed. From which language branch shall come the probable Comforter?
2. Would the Comforter come from the branch of Aramaic or otherwise as in Latin?

Happy answering my friend.

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

Jesus never said anything abt failing. I think you need to read again.
The Bible clearly says that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.
Mohd just don't fit or qualify.

cheers

DivinePonytail

John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor/Comforter to be with you forever

Fuzzman

Simple. In fact too deafeningly simple. It tells me that you people do not know who that Comforter really is! And by the looks of it you do not know whether that Comforter has arrived or not by the standards of the Bible that you hold dear.

The Comforter mentioned by Jesus in John 16:13 specifically genderised that Comforter as a male. As in HE. As in flesh and bones. Now that verse recorded Jesus as saying that this human Comforter shall come but not so in his time but in the future. So don't you think you people should get out of the box and put a face on that HE that Jesus had mentioned ever so clearly? The understanding of Jesus over Creation and Mankind superceeds the lowly Jews at that time who could not fathom the knowledge of Jesus endowed by the Father who sent HIM. So when HE spake of The Holy Spirit, it was meant to describe a human yet to be born. So simple yet so difficult for all to accept.

When today someone tells you that a certain alive so and so, living somewhere down the block is a kindred spirit, does that make that living person a ghost?

In John 14:17, can you tell whether Jesus was speaking for the past, present or future ? What tense was Jesus using?

ARI FUZZMAN

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 2005-1-26 10:12 PM:
Jesus never said anything abt failing. I think you need to read again.
The Bible clearly says that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.
Mohd just don't fit or qualify. cheers

HIS time was up. HE knew HIS time was up and He could not complete the mission of the FATHER WHO sent HIM. That was why Jesus spake of the Comforter yet to come. The Comforter that would only speak of what HE hears and NOTHING more.  Was Paul that Comforter? Was John the Baptist that Comforter? Was Martin Luther that Comforter? Was Hitler that Comforter? And I thought you knew your Bible that well preacher man?

ARI FUZZMAN

Fuzzman

Question is :-

CAN YOU PROVE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAKS OF ONLY WHAT IT HEARS? Have anyone of you ever heard the voice of the Holy Spirit?

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

Originally posted by Fuzzman at 2005-1-27 02:06 AM:

HIS time was up. HE knew HIS time was up and He could not complete the mission of the FATHER WHO sent HIM.

He completed His mission perfectly. There is no mention of failure or incompleteness written anywhere in the Bible.

That was why Jesus spake of the Comforter yet to come. The Comforter that would only speak of what HE hears and NOTHING more.  Was Paul that Comforter? Was John the Baptist that Comforter? Was Martin Luther that Comforter? Was Hitler that Comforter? And I thought you knew your Bible that well preacher man?

The Bible says that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, not a man.

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

DivinePonytail

Originally posted by Fuzzman at 27-1-2005 02:00 AM:
Simple. In fact too deafeningly simple. It tells me that you people do not know who that Comforter really is! And by the looks of it you do not know whether that Comforter has arrived o ...

No, christians already know who is the comforter is. Clearly in the verse it says The Holy Spirit. How more clearer you want it to be? Examine this verse;

John 14:16,
And I will ask the Father, and he will give YOU another Counselor/Comforter to be with YOU FOREVER.

"YOU" here means Jesus was refering to John. Peter and the rest of disciples. Jesus would send the Spirit of Truth to them. NOT to the Mecans, Medinans or Arabians. And didn't you know the  meaning word FOREVER. Jesus said that the Comforter, once he had come, would never leave his disciples, but would be with them forever.

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you KNOW him, for he LIVES with you and will be IN you.

You know Him- The clause brings out just how the disciples knew him. At this stage we can see quite clearly that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit who was in the disciples' presence already.

For he lives with you -  Refer to John 1.32, the Holy Spirit was in Jesus himself and so was with the disciples.

And will be in you - The Holy Spirit, the spirit of truth was in Jesus, so he would be in the disciples as well. Can a man be inside a man?

[ Last edited by DivinePonytail on 27-1-2005 at 10:48 AM ]

Fuzzman

Debmey wrote: He completed His mission perfectly. There is no mention of failure or incompleteness written anywhere in the Bible.

I'm glad to know that you are " remarkably strong and well-versed" in Bible Studies. So what does John 16:12 teach you preacher man?
Let me help you out by appending John 16:12 which reads  - "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now."

Debmey wrote:The Bible says that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, not a man.

Fine then. I have no qualms about what you believe in but [there's always a but] you need to show me :-

1. The corelation between the two and from which party between the two do you receive accept the words and law of God? So do you take in the laws of Jesus or that of the Holy Spirit that resides in you, meaning that if there were 2 billion Christians today you would have 2 billions Holy Spirits in each and every one of them all.

2. How the Holy Spirit if being as you say is the coming Comforter be release or taken away from the Trinity denomination as you very well know that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God are three in one. Remember that by the Bible, Jesus had the Holy Spirit already in HIM, so how can Jesus send something that is already a working part of HIMSELF?

Debmey wrote: John 14:26 - But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Again you have helped me in my quest without knowing it. You have submitted a verse that proves not only for the Comforter to be a human but that this Comforter is the ONE AND SAME coming Holy Spirit. A human that has not benn born during the time Jesus made this recording. Do you know what means Counselor? Need I append its meaning for you?

And DivinePonyTail, you're invited to say something as what I've responded here has got to do with your post too. Thank you.

ARI FUZZMAN

Fuzzman

Guess Debmey and the Old School fraternity agree on these 4 crucial points without any futile resistence :-

1. THE HOLY SPIRIT CANNOT BE THE COMFORTER.

2. THE COUNSELOR MENTIONED IN JOHN 14:26 IS A UNBORN HUMAN AND NOT
    THE HOLY SPIRIT WHICH IS A THIRD PARTIAL DENOMINATION OF THE TRINITY
     BELIEF SYSTEM.

3. THERE IS NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE COMFORTER BY BIBLE
    STANDARDS AS PROMISED BY JESUS IN JOHN 16:13.

4. THERE IS NO SOLID ARGUMENT TO DENY PROPHET MUHAMMAD THE RIGHT OF
    PLACE AS THE  PROMISED COMFORTER MENTIONED IN JOHN 16:13 BECAUSE
    PROPHET MUHAMMAD FITS THE CRITERIA OF A COMFORTER WHO ONLY SPEAKS
    OF WHAT HE HEARS FROM GABRIEL.

Any comments from the Old School fraternity?

ARI FUZZMAN

DivinePonytail

Whatever float your boat Fuzzman.
Keep telling yourself that everytime before you go to sleep. Makes you feel good doesn't it? I already explain to you the nature of the comforter and it cannot be a human. Read again.

nightlord

Well the thing is muslims dont believe they have a soul or spirit within them as christian do.

They believe they are as they are when they die, and their ghost( I am avoiding the word spirit here as in the christian context our spirit or soul is basically belonging to the substance of God while they believe they are totally separate).

That is why they cannot understand the multiplicity of Godhood and omnipresence.

They admit Allah is omnipresent, yet they cannot understand that God in spirit can be in multiple places at the same time, whether in Jesus,or external in spirit or residing in heaven.

IQ problem? or just too restricted in thought processes you guess is as good as mine.

Fuzzman

DivinePonytail wrote: Whatever float your boat Fuzzman.
Keep telling yourself that everytime before you go to sleep. Makes you feel good doesn't it? I already explain to you the nature of the comforter and it cannot be a human. Read again.

Whatever floats my boat rocks yours - no doubt. Thanks for responding.

I respect what you think but then again you gotta go much much further on this. Not all things are simple and the Comforter issue is one such. In Bible itself, the Comforter is described to be not only the Holy Spirit but also a Counselor. So how do you entwain the both? This I ask of you? As with regards in similiar fashion, how do you explain the "second coming" of the Holy Spirit as the Comforter when the Holy Spirit is believed to be already existing and a part of Jesus - who happens to be 1/3 of the Trinity triology?

Please educate us New School on these matters. Thank you once again.

ARI FUZZMAN

Fuzzman

Taken in full context from the thread:  Christians haters are getting more in this board

Originally posted by nightlord at 2005-1-30 08:47 PM:
Well lets put it this way Fuzzy, did MO say that he was the comforter or some sahabat say that he is the comforter? Check it out before trying to defend it.

The prophet didn't say it personally. Not even his "sahabat". The point here is that Prophet Mohammad only spoke of what was passed down to him and nothing more or less than required of him. Now doesn't that point to the fact that this intermediary act coincides perfectly with John 16:13? How about you Old School peeps try defending John 16:13 as irrelevant to Prophet Mohammad.

ARI FUZZMAN

Fuzzman

Taken in full context from the thread:  Christians haters are getting more in this board.

Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 2005-1-30 09:01 PM:
Well, thats the thing nightlord. It is already clear in the bible is the Holy Spirit. Its not that they dont understand, or unclear of what we trying to explain to them but they dont want to accept it because thats not the answer that they "wanted" to hear. They want us to say.."oh you're so right, the comforter is actually a man, and it is actually muhammad".

The Comforter has three variations by Bible standards. What the Old School needs to do is to verify the corelation between the trilogy that comprises of the Comforter proper, the alledged Holy Spirit that is already resident in Jesus and the mystery of the Counselor - all of which were mentioned simultaneously as synergies of the qualities of the Comforter.

You have to try much harder and clearer over just putting up with cut & pastes by Debmey or do you wish us New School peeps to say..." oh you're so right, the comforter is actually Jesus in a disguise as the Comforter as well as being the Counselor all at the same time and therefore never can be a man."

ARI FUZZMAN

aenemy7

:hmm:

Why did Jesus use the word "araclete"?

Why did Jesus use the word "araclete" when he predicted the coming of the Comforter after him?

According to the Aramaic Bible Society, the word "araclete" back then meant the "raised One".  Muhammad's name was "Ahmed".  Both Muhammad and Ahmed in Arabic mean "The Honored One" or the "raised One".


The following was taken from http://www.aramaic.org/PARAVLETE.html

Q. I am curious why in the Aramaic scriptures the word "paraclete" is used when talking about the "comforter" and the "advocate". Can you enlighten me on this? I believe as you, that Jesus only spoke Aramaic, not Greek.
Thanks, Ken.

A. Dear Ken,

You have raised an important question. Why indeed are there any Greek words in the "Aramaic Scriptures?" The short answer is that you were working with the "eshitto" which is otherwise known as the West Palestinian "eshitta" that was made to conform to the pre-Christian Septuagint of the Greek church. We know that Jesus did not speak Greek because the Aramaic speaking people in the time of Jesus considered it sinful to speak any other language. This had to be true because the Aramaic Estrangelo Script was the lingua franca in Palestine at the time of Jesus. Aramaic in this script is similar to Arabic and this was the language of commerce and industry. A growing number of scholars now recognize that Jesus spoke this form of Aramaic, not Greek. The square letter Aramaic in Hebraic characters came much later. (See "Western Christian Scholars Awaken to Truth" in the Table of Contents on the Aramaic Bible Society Website). See Eusebius' "Ecclesiastical History", first published in 1928! Also, "The Age of Faith", Will and Ariel Durant's "The Story of Civilization", Vol. 4.

Follow me as we trace the Biblical history of this Greek word "araclete". Startling as it may seem, at one time the word read "eriklytos" and "araklytos", which is the name for "Muhammad" in Greek. Surprising? It should not be because both words mean "raised" or "Celebrate," the meaning and character of the man "Muhammad." (1 Jesus in The Qur'an, One World Publications, (c) Geoffrey Parrinder 1965, 1995, ISBN 1-85168-094-2. Knowing this, there is a need for us to study the life of Prophet Muhammad in depth to see if it all stands up. Surprisingly it does.

Of special interest always is what the name for Muhammad was in his mother tongue, Palestinian Aramaic. For this we have to look to the Hebrew and Aramaic scriptures. According to the present day Aramaic scriptures, the word for Muhammad would read "araqleyta" or "araklytos" in Greek and "Menahem" in Hebrew! In the ancient Aramaic scriptures, before these changes, it read "Ahmad," then Munahammana" which is the Aramaic/Syriac rendering for the name "Muhammad." These are names, not simply words, and they mean "Comforter" or "Muhammad" in Arabic.

There is no Aramaic dictionary where you'll find the word "araqleyta" because there is no such word in that language. Therefore, two questions are asked:

     1.Why was "eriklytos" changed to "araklytos"?

     2.Why was Ahmad changed to "Munahammana" and then to "araqleyta?"



History tells us that Muhammad was the only prophet who came shortly after Jesus and did everything Jesus said he would. But, you ask, what is the meaning of all of this? The answer is given in Luke 6:40, "There is no disciple who is more important than his teacher; for every man who is well developed will be like his teacher" (Lamsa) or "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master" (KJV). Christians are often told that no one can go to heaven except by Jesus. This tells us that the only way anyone can go to heaven is to be Christ-like. Muhammad was such a man. Muslims make a stronger case. They say that Jesus says the only way one can be with Jesus in Heaven is to be as Him, i.e., one who submits to Alaha's Will (Aramaic), Allah's Will (Arabic). To do this is to be a Muslim! But let us return to the study of the word "Comforter."



John 16:7-13

But I tell you the truth, It is better for you that I should go away; for if I do not away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I should go, I will send him to you. And when he is come, he will rebuke the world concerning sin, concerning righteousness, and concerning Judgment. Concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; Concerning righteousness, because I go to my Father, and you will not see me again; Concerning judgment, because the leader of this world has been judged. Again, I have many other things to tell you, but you cannot grasp them now. But when the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all the truth: for he will not speak from himself, but what he hears, that he will speak: and he will make known to you things which are to come in the future. He will glorify me; because he will take of my own and show to you. Everything that my Father has is mine; this is the reason why I told you that he will take of my own and show to you. (Lamsa)



The difference between Muslims and Christians is that Muslims use the original words that Jesus and all the prophets used. In speaking of John 16:7-13, most Christians will tell you that the "Comforter" Jesus will send is the Holy Ghost. But keep in mind that the Holy Ghost was around before Jesus. In the Aramaic we see that the translation is "Spirit." Jesus, peace be upon him, was talking about the one who would ONLY appear when He joined His Father in Heaven*. In other words, this Spirit of Truth (a man) was never around before. The man Jesus sent was Muhammad.

If this information is surprising to you, let me take it a step further. Christians and Jews alike have forgotten the history of the Great Nation that was to come out of Ishmael, and the 12 princes that came out of him. Where is the conclusion of the story of Ishmael, and why was it unfinished? Was Ishmael really a *****, or was there jealousy involved? If Ishmael was a *****, Isaac was a greater ***** because he was born through incest; Abraham and Sarah were brother and sister (Genesis 20:12). This is in the Christian Bible and in the Torah! Muslims do not say this. Jealousy and hatred towards anyone will always make one degrade the one that is hated.

Having cited the historical shortcomings of the Christian Bibles in matters relevant to its own history and the great nation of Islam, it behooves us to give a brief account of the latter. When God brought Islam, the Muslims won remarkable victories, conquering the Byzantines as well as all other nations. As time went on and the Muslim dynasty flourished, the Muslims developed an urban culture for learning which surpassed that of all other nations. When the Christians forced the Spanish Muslims to accept Christianity, the Christians collected the works of the Muslim physicians and scholars and this work spread all over Europe and of course giving Christians the credit. But it was the Arab caliphs who had supported intercultural institutions like the university at Jundishahpur and the House of Wisdom in Baghdad. It was Arab medicine that had blossomed magnificently. It was the great physicians of the Islamic world who illuminated Europe in the Dark Ages with a well-elaborated science whose outlines are still familiar today.

The story of the rise of the Muslim empire is not unlike that of Nestorius. (See "The Lynching of Nestorius" in the ABS Table of Contents) When Nestorius, patriarch of Constantinople, 428-431, was forced into exile he and some of his people took the enlightenment of math and the sciences into Persia and even into China. Marco Polo discovered the ruins of the Church of the East erected in the eighth century A.D., long after the death of Nestorius.

In Service To God,
Ramazan M. M. Zuberi

(Christian Supplements by Robert E. Allen, Jr., President, The Aramaic Bible Society, Inc.)

* The real message of the life and teachings of Jesus, Muhammad and Nestorius can be likened to that of the Peshitta and the Qur'an. The Church of the East claims that every copy of the Peshitta ever made was certified by every Bishop to be a true and clean copy, the meaning of the word "eshitta" itself. The Qur'an is likened unto it. The Peshitto or Peshitta of the West was changed, not so often as present day Christian Bibles but changed in ancient times. The Torah was destroyed with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and since has suffered a worse fate. There were only two such scrolls at the time. One was held by the priests, the other by the King. In those times families were charged with the memory of whole books and what was created has been re-written many times to suit the purpose of the writers as with the many versions of the Christian Bible.

* The Muslim view of the phrase, "He joined His Father in Heaven," is that Jesus never joined God, but is in the second heaven waiting until God sends him on his "second coming". Also, it should be pointed out that Muslim's do not praise even Muhammad's name although it means "the praised one".




Allah Knows Best,Peace Yall...