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Sebab kenapa Muhammad dan Jesus tak harus diterima menurut Hinduism.
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by truth.8
so, we should mind our tounge too
Tounge???
You mean thongs? Sorry, I don't wear thongs.  |
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by Gunblade712
During that time, according to Hinduism, who gave the first "Man" the knowledge of the unknown/unseen?
To make it simpler, who was the first guru of mankind and/or who was mankind's guru?
Answer :- Nature. Nature is the First Guru.
If a being of limited intelligent were to find more about the Unseen Force, it can only do so by studying the Forces which he could see and experience. Nature is that Force. He can see the water flowing, the Sun shining, stars and the moon moving, clouds and feel the rain. He could sit down and watch the changing weather and season, and know from this that Man too have seasons - young, mature, old and death.
No one gave Mankind any special knowledge. The Knowledge is already there within Nature for Man to learn and unravel. For example, a drop of blood. To an unlearned person, it is nothing but a thick, reddish liquid. But to a learned person, he or she knows that the blood contains information about who the blood belongs to. |
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Sephiroth posted on 29-10-2013 03:24 PM 
by truth.8
tongue i mean...
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Sephiroth posted on 29-10-2013 05:41 PM
by Gunblade712
Though I disagree with your title, I understand your explanation and concept of 'knowledge' and 'guru'.
There are some of your explanations that resembles Islam's (or any other samawi religion) point of view pertaining knowledge, teacher (guru) and so forth. For instance, we have 'Rasul' and we have 'Nabi'. 'Rasul' are those who were chosen to receive the revelation and convey the message; a 'Nabi' are those who were chosen to receive the message but it is not compulsory for them to convey it. A 'Rasul' is always a 'Nabi' but a 'Nabi' is not necessarily a 'Rasul'. This is why sometimes people refer to Prophet Muhammad s.a.w as 'Nabi Muhammad' or 'Rasulullah' (which means Rasul of Allah).
We believe that Muhammad s.a.w obtained his knowledge from Allah (Allah is the Al-'Ilm, the One Who Holds All Knowledge). It is through Allah that birds know how to fly, tigers know how to pounce, and it is through Allah than Mankind obtain all knowledge. Allah reveals what He wants the human to know and He withhelds whatever knowledge that He doesn't want humans to know. It befits His Majestic, for He is the Owner of the Sovereignity. To Him belongs whatever in the Heavens and the Earth and everything in between. Though direct revelation have stopped, Allah still reveals what He deems fits for human beings to know and understand. It is through knowledge that He shows His Kudrah (His Power, Capability).
Of course, I am not here to debate on this matter. Though I disagree with your thread's title, I do understand your concept of knowledge, 'guru' and other things related which you have shared with us. I believe we can agree to disagree so that we can respect each other more.
Thank you for sharing. 
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Sephiroth posted on 29-10-2013 11:51 AM
by mashimaru83
Sephiroth:
Oldest is not necessarily the true one? Where is the proof that newest is true one? I don't see your logic here. If you look at something old, it is TIME-TESTED. The questions have been asked, answered, revised through the generations and re-asked again. The new is NOT TIME-TESTED.
People need evidence, you say. What is the evidence that Jesus existed or even died for your pathetic a$$ that you could follow Christianity? Or that Muhammad is actually listening to God (and not hallucinating) before you follow Islam? And that Atheism could lead you to a higher level of understanding and not end up like a freaking dog? Where the hell is your evidence (for your belief) before you could come and ask others? 
We can discuss on Prophet Jesus and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them) or even Gautama Buddha but let's not jump off the current issue which is you providing the evidence to support your claims in post #2.
Sephiroth:
You are mistaken. No one asking you to change. Do you know WHY?
250 years ago, no one believed that there was something called Gravity holding us down. They believe that the mountains were pasted onto the ground, and that the roots of the trees gripped itself and kept it from falling down and that humans were kept on the ground by the will of God. No one believe in Gravity existed, but no one dared to test it by jumping off a mountain.
Same here with Laws of karma, Dharma and Satyam (Truth). It matters NOT whether you believes in it or follows our beliefs or change your belief accordingly. WE DO NOT CARE $HIT. Do you know why? Cos regardless of what you believe (or don't), the Effects of Karma is real (just like Gravity) and you will get what you deserve eventually. 
You choose Hinduism because:
1) It is the OLDEST religion.
2) Its followers have brought great knowledge and wisdom to those who did not have it (like those people in South East Asia between 100 AD to 1400 AD).
Like I said earlier, OLDEST doesn't make the religion itself correct. You cannot go talk to people saying that "Hindu is the OLDEST religion, so it must be the correct religion". That is absolute nonsense. People need real evidence. OLDEST is not a real evidence. And I would like to emphasize that I don't mean Hindu is incorrect but the problem here is you didn't bring forward the evidence to support your claim in post #2. I didn't see any reference to Hindus scriptures at all. How can I establish the truthfullness of your claim? "OLDEST" doesn't prove anything at all as post #2 still can be a made up claims by you!
Sephiroth:
IF one generation (of people) can decide what is the Truth, then how can it is called Absolute Truth? Where is the logic in assuming your generations have all the facts that they could make a claim that they know Absolute Truth? IF your very basic of argument is faulty, how are you going to find truth???
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by Gunblade712
Of course, I am not here to debate on this matter. Though I disagree with your thread's title, I do understand your concept of knowledge, 'guru' and other things related which you have shared with us. I believe we can agree to disagree so that we can respect each other more.
My title is to evaluate the concept of Guru from human perspective, not Spiritual perspective. I have limited the discussion to things which Man is incapable of knowing (like Spiritualism) because once we start debating where Man learned about Unseen Forces, then the debate will continue onward to whose religion is correct. Therefore, what you have wrote, I will not disagree.
I will not disagree with your explanation of what a Nabi or a Rasul is as accordance to that of Guru (Diskha Guru dan Shiska Guru). I do see little bit of similarities. Muhammad maybe a suitable person in Arabic World (at that time) to teach Muslims about Allah, however, if one were to take his criteria from Hinduism point of view (by comparing it with other Hindu saints and sages), I could say he is a poor quality to be a teacher. Important note here - I'm comparing Muhammad with other humans like Saints and NOT with gods. |
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by mashimaru83
Being older doesn't make you correct automatically!
Yes it does. Do you know why? Because - We have the facts to prove it is correct - like physical evidence like Rama Setu (bridge) and the Dwarka ruins. We also have archaeological evidence to support our stories. Therefore, we are time-tested. Therefore, we are correct till YOU PROVE US OTHERWISE.
Saying that "Hindu is the OLDEST religion" can't tell me anything and doesn't prove anything other than that Hindu has been around since long long time ago.
Yes, and since it is been here for a long time, the "facts" written within the scriptures (which brought forth for ages as oral traditions before writing was introduced) are historical facts on how Mankind came about and how Gods and Goddesses had played their role. If one were to look at the history books, one must take the historical points from the book, go out to the real World and then tested it with findings in the real World. Findings which shown to be truth are accepted as Facts and those which does not, moved aside as myth. So far, I don't see any reasons to doubt Hinduism.
You cannot go talk to people saying that "Hindu is the OLDEST religion, so it must be the correct religion". That is absolute nonsense. People need real evidence.
No, people are stupid. They don't need evidence to follow a religion. They just need monetary and worldly incentives. I have seen Indian youths convert to Islam (and Christianity) for sake of women and wealth. Asking me to prove anything to this sort of people is like asking me to try and convert a dog.
OLDEST is not a real evidence.
Unless you prove me that being older (and wiser) is not good enough, I really don't care what you say. PROOF IT.
In this case, the evidences are Hindu scriptures, Al-Quran and The Bible because they are all claimed to be from God.
And you can prove their claims by actions of their followers. The difference between Hinduism, Islam and Christianity is the actions of their followers. While Hinduism produced great and noble people like Mahatma Gandhi, Swami Vivekanda and Swami Prapupada (founder of ISKON), Islam produced pigs and dogs like Al Qeuda and Talibans. So here, you have distinct proof which religion belongs to God.
You can talk about contents of a religion all you want, but the true proof of God's religion is the effect it has on the followers. A true followers of God cannot go astray and commit evil act without guilt and sin ripping his soul asunder. ONLY those who follows Evil will commit Evil acts. That is MY proof which religion is God's. |
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by Gunblade712
Allah reveals what He wants the human to know and He withhelds whatever knowledge that He doesn't want humans to know.
"I am seated in everyone's heart and from Me comes remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness."
- Bhavagad Gita 15:15
What your Islam stated (1,400 years ago), we already know over 5,000 years ago.  |
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Sephiroth posted on 30-10-2013 09:32 AM
by mashimaru83 Sephiroth:
Yes it does. Do you know why? Because - We have the facts to prove it is correct - like physical evidence like Rama Setu (bridge) and the Dwarka ruins. We also have archaeological evidence to support our stories. Therefore, we are time-tested. Therefore, we are correct till YOU PROVE US OTHERWISE.
Sephiroth:
Yes, and since it is been here for a long time, the "facts" written within the scriptures (which brought forth for ages as oral traditions before writing was introduced) are historical facts on how Mankind came about and how Gods and Goddesses had played their role. If one were to look at the history books, one must take the historical points from the book, go out to the real World and then tested it with findings in the real World. Findings which shown to be truth are accepted as Facts and those which does not, moved aside as myth. So far, I don't see any reasons to doubt Hinduism.
Sephiroth:
No, people are stupid. They don't need evidence to follow a religion. They just need monetary and worldly incentives. I have seen Indian youths convert to Islam (and Christianity) for sake of women and wealth. Asking me to prove anything to this sort of people is like asking me to try and convert a dog.
Sephiroth:
Unless you prove me that being older (and wiser) is not good enough, I really don't care what you say. PROOF IT.
Sephiroth:
And you can prove their claims by actions of their followers. The difference between Hinduism, Islam and Christianity is the actions of their followers. While Hinduism produced great and noble people like Mahatma Gandhi, Swami Vivekanda and Swami Prapupada (founder of ISKON), Islam produced pigs and dogs like Al Qeuda and Talibans. So here, you have distinct proof which religion belongs to God.
You can talk about contents of a religion all you want, but the true proof of God's religion is the effect it has on the followers. A true followers of God cannot go astray and commit evil act without guilt and sin ripping his soul asunder. ONLY those who follows Evil will commit Evil acts. That is MY proof which religion is God's.
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by mashimaru83
Nevertheless, you haven't put forward the evidence from your scriptures to support all your claims in post #2. Show me the verse!
IF you assume Hinduism is wrong even so it is the oldest, wisest and the ONLY religion on the Planet which holds all the information correctly so far, that is YOUR ASSUMPTION and I will not prove you are wrong. You are not asking me to prove me right, you are asking me to prove you are wrong.
Look here, on the surface level "facts" do exist in both Al-Quran and the Bible. On the technical level, one have to assess those facts whether they are truth or myth.
OK, let play the game your way then. You claim that on the surface level that facts like (what I stated) exist in Christianity and Islam. Fine, please state where is this knowledge, cos I remember clearly ct_og or Dzulkanian (not sure which one) stated earlier that such knowledge doesn't exist in Al Quran. You making a claim that it does exist, therefore, please provide the proof. Then, show me how you assess this "facts" to determine whether it is myth or facts.
Also, when dealing with Islam and Christianity, you will face an additional task which NOT required when dealing with facts stated in Hinduism (as it is oldest). You must show me that these "facts" you claim exist in Al Quran and the Bible doesn't exist in any other places to show that it is genuine knowledge and not something humans added into the scriptures later.
"I'm older than you, so I'm always correct". That is wrong!
And WHY is it wrong?
As much as we have bad Muslims, you will also find bad Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, etc.
No you won't. You will find EVIL MEN in the World. They could follow various beliefs but they will be Evil nevertheless. It will be in their Nature to commit Evil. A greedy man will steal - regardless whether he is a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or atheist - because of his nature of greed. Same as a lustful man, same as an arrogant and ignorant man.
But how these factors play a deciding factor of a religion is determined how the religion influences that (evil) man to change himself. IF a religion able to change an evil man to become a good man, it is religion of God. IF all a religion does is to provide an excuse for that man to commit more sins and evil actions (justify his actions), then such religion cannot be considered religion of God. Therefore, actions of Man is the deciding factor in determining the religion's status. |
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Sephiroth posted on 30-10-2013 09:13 AM
by Gunblade712
I see what your platform of discussion. I apologize if I went a little bit too far in discussing about the unknown. Allow me to elaborate more from Islamic point of view:
In Islam, a Muslim should learn these things :
1. Aqidah
From the root word 'aqad' which means 'to tie knot'. Remember the Malay word 'akad nikah'? It's taken from this arabic word. Aqidah means to make an agreement with Allah; that we worship Allah alone and associate no partners with Him. As you might have known, Islam practices strict monotheism, which means the aqidah is the most basic knowledge a Muslim MUST know. The Ulama' have made it easy for us to learn this by writing down 'Rukun Iman', 'The Article of Faith'. The aqidah of a Muslim is that he/she MUST believe (with no doubt) on the existence of Allah (without any partners), the Angels, the Books sent down from Allah, the Nabi and Rasul, The Day of Judgment, Qada' and Qadar of Allah (loosely translated as Allah's Will and Predestined).
"Believing in the Unseen" is part of Akidah. This means that a Muslim is also obligated to believe in Jannah (Heaven), Jahannam (Hell), Mizan (The Balance), Lauh Mahfuz etc...
2. Fiqh
The literal meaning of 'Fiqh' is 'deep understanding'. In Islam, 'Fiqh' (or the Malay or 'Fekah') means the knowledge of things that humans can do. I believe that Ibn Khaldun defined Fiqh as "knowledge of the rules of God which concern the actions of persons who own themselves bound to obey the law respecting what is required (wajib), sinful (haraam), recommended (mandūb), disapproved (makrūh) or neutral (mubah)". Prayer, fasting, hajj, and anything that are ordered for mankind to do, falls under Fiqh. It is in Fiqh that there are differences in opinions between mazhab. For example; some scholar says that 'Qunut' must be recite during Fajr (Subuh) prayer, while some scholar says that the 'Qunut' must be recite during Witr prayer (prayer done after Isyak; not compulsory). The differences of opinions in Fiqh doesn't affect one's aqidah as long as the differences falls within the scope and context of Islam. For instance, a traveler can and are allowed to cut his prayer's rakaat by half. The difference in opinion regarding this is how to define a traveler? Some say, he must travel 90km, some say as long as he's out of his hometown's perimeter. However, one CANNOT say that "a traveler doesn't have to pray" because this opinion clearly goes outside the boundaries of Islam.
I hope my explanation on Fiqh is easy for you to understand.
3. Akhlak/Tasawwuf
Akhlak is the study of virtue, morality, etc. Akhlak is a vast scope of knowledge, but to make it easier, it boils down to this : "Do not harm others so that others may not harm you". Kindly take note that this is just the most minute of Akhlak's study. Tasawwuf is basically "pure hearts with pure intention". Again, this is a minute of Tasawwuf's study.
So, a Muslim is to know all of the three aforementioned field of knowledge so that he/she can practise Islam with an ease of mind. All of the three knowledge intertwine, with Akidah being the most important knowledge. There is no point in praying full 5 times a day if one akidah is destroyed by associating partners with Allah. The lack of knowledge, committing wrongdoings in Fiqh and Akhlak/Tasawwuf will still make you a Muslim/Muslimah, but wrongdoings pertaining Akidah can and will destroy your faith and your status as a 'Muslim'.
Now, seeing that we're not discussing the knowledge of the unseen, we are not discussing Aqidah. We have two other fields; Fiqh, and Akhlak/Tasawwuf. Which of these fields showed that Muhammad s.a.w. is not a qualified teacher/guru? (Na'uzubillah).
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Sephiroth posted on 30-10-2013 09:53 AM
by Gunblade712
Thank you. We have no trouble agreeing that you knew about this; we do not believe that Islam started during Muhammad (s.a.w)'s time; we believe that the first human being was a Muslim, and we believe that 'Islam' is the first religion ever sent down, though humans have changed the teachings, just like how Samiri changed the teachings of Moses a.s.
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by Gunblade712
Which of these fields showed that Muhammad s.a.w. is not a qualified teacher/guru? (Na'uzubillah).
Muhammad maybe a qualified teacher when comes to Islam, but is he a qualified teacher for Mankind? From Islamic point of view, I see no problems if you were to follow Muhammad, however, I have problem when you start stating that Muhammad is example of the best human being and that Islam is sole religion to be followed.
Furthermore, you have deviated from my explaination of what a Guru. I have stated that Guru has three forms - Diskha, Shiksha and Chaitya. Or a Guru who brings in a student and teach him, a Guru who shows the way (to the student) and God as a Guru. For argument sake, we will leave Chaitya out of this discussion for now.
Is Muhammad a Diskha Guru (one who brings in a student and teach him)? Answer - No. because Islam was not given to him in a complete form but given to him in a gap of 20 years (he started preaching at age of 40, and died at age of 64 if not mistaken, so that roughly 20 years). Therefore, a Student cannot be a Guru till he have absorbed all the knowledge himself. Furthermore, he did not initialize any students and randomly teach anyone who could listen to him in Mecca.
Is Muhammad a Shiksha Guru (one who shows the Students the Knowledge)? Answer - No, Muhammad did not show any knowledge, but merely instructed his followers to follow his instructions. Many of his followers did not know why he did or say things, and merely followed it blindly, which was why many have left after Muhammad died and Abu Bakar have to issue death threats to keep Muslims in line.
Furthermore, a Guru must choose a Student to teach the knowledge and when he passes away, the Student become the Master and continue the process. In Christianity, at least Jesus had choose 13 male disciples (including Judas) and one female disciple (Mary Magledene which the Church disregarded later). Who was Muhammad's students? Was the knowledge passed to anyone in particular? No, it was made into a book. There was no direct Guru-student relationship here, therefore, Muhammad is not a religious Guru. |
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Sephiroth posted on 30-10-2013 11:27 AM
by Gunblade712
Thank you for your response. Your point and discussion is interesting to read.
Muhammad s.a.w have mentioned in one of his hadith which roughly translated to : "There are four people who will never go wrong, follow them. The prophet, the sahabah, the tabi'in, and the tabi'it tabi'in". If you want to look at it in the Hinduism way, these are the chain of knowledge passed down from the Prophet s.a.w. Even until today, the huffaz (those who memorize Quran) must go to India (if I am not mistaken) to obtain the ijazah (NOT the kind that we got in University!); his readings are to be checked by those who memorize Quran following the chain up to the Prophet s.a.w's time.
Just a funfact: The four mazhab, Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'e and Hambali, are all named after an imam. Imam Shafi'e is the one who introduce his opinion, thus the Shafi'e school of thoughts (Mazhab Shafi'e), Imam Malik introduce his opinion, thus the Maliki school of thoughts, Imam Hambali and Hanafi introduce their opinion, thus the Hambali and Hanafi School of Thoughts respectively. Why do I bring this up?
Imam Shafi'e, Imam Maliki, Imam Hambali, and Imam Hanafi are the tabi'it tabi'in, the last in the line that we are to follow.
The 12 diciples of Jesus (13, but I'd prefer we leave Judas out of this hehe) is his close companions who followed him and listen to his lectures. This is just like what the Sahabah did. In short, the 12 diciples to Jesus is what the Sahabah is to prophet Muhammad s.a.w. Not to mention Prophet Muhammad s.a.w's family members (Saidina Ali, Saidatina 'Aisyah and so forth) all are referred to after the prophet s.a.w's passing.
I'm not sure if what you mean by Guru > Student relationship is 1 on 1 basis ONLY (meaning there can be only one guru per time), but what we believe is that after the Prophet s.a.w passed away, the Sahabah took over as the person of whom should be referred to. Imagine it like a tree, the Prophet s.a.w plant the seed of knowledge, and when he passed away, out came, let's say, 6, 'guru'. From there, the branch expands and expands until Islam reaches to China, Malaysia, Australia and so forth.
By the way I'm not quite clear about one thing; how is it, in Hinduism, that a student is taken up by a Guru? I mean, we do have registration when it comes to schools and universities, but what about the 'Guru' concept that you've shared with us? Is there any form of 'ritual' (pardon the choices of word, I don't know what's the word to choose here) ?
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Sephiroth posted on 30-10-2013 11:27 AM
by Gunblade712 Is Muhammad a Diskha Guru (one who brings in a student and teach him)? Answer - No. because Islam was not given to him in a complete form but given to him in a gap of 20 years (he started preaching at age of 40, and died at age of 64 if not mistaken, so that roughly 20 years). Therefore, a Student cannot be a Guru till he have absorbed all the knowledge himself. Furthermore, he did not initialize any students and randomly teach anyone who could listen to him in Mecca.
This is one other thing that I wanted to inquire; Muhammad s.a.w obtained his knowledge from Allah, the Lord of the Universe. If we loosely use your Hindu references, this is a 'Chaitya Guru'.
Both of us agrees that all knowledge are obtained from God, just the method of obtaining are different (some obtain it directly, others by observation, but ALL from God).
If all knowledge are from God, then it would be quite impossible, from a Hindu point of view, to share knowledge as it would be impossible for anyone to absorb God's knowledge.
How do Hinduism see the above situation and is there something else that I'm missing here..? Hope you can help us by sharing your thoughts. Thanks.
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Sephiroth posted on 30-10-2013 10:57 AM
by mashimaru83 Sephiroth:
IF you assume Hinduism is wrong even so it is the oldest, wisest and the ONLY religion on the Planet which holds all the information correctly so far, that is YOUR ASSUMPTION and I will not prove you are wrong. You are not asking me to prove me right, you are asking me to prove you are wrong.
Sephiroth:
OK, let play the game your way then. You claim that on the surface level that facts like (what I stated) exist in Christianity and Islam. Fine, please state where is this knowledge, cos I remember clearly ct_og or Dzulkanian (not sure which one) stated earlier that such knowledge doesn't exist in Al Quran. You making a claim that it does exist, therefore, please provide the proof. Then, show me how you assess this "facts" to determine whether it is myth or facts.
Also, when dealing with Islam and Christianity, you will face an additional task which NOT required when dealing with facts stated in Hinduism (as it is oldest). You must show me that these "facts" you claim exist in Al Quran and the Bible doesn't exist in any other places to show that it is genuine knowledge and not something humans added into the scriptures later.
Sephiroth:
And WHY is it wrong?
Sephiroth:
No you won't. You will find EVIL MEN in the World. They could follow various beliefs but they will be Evil nevertheless. It will be in their Nature to commit Evil. A greedy man will steal - regardless whether he is a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or atheist - because of his nature of greed. Same as a lustful man, same as an arrogant and ignorant man.
But how these factors play a deciding factor of a religion is determined how the religion influences that (evil) man to change himself. IF a religion able to change an evil man to become a good man, it is religion of God. IF all a religion does is to provide an excuse for that man to commit more sins and evil actions (justify his actions), then such religion cannot be considered religion of God. Therefore, actions of Man is the deciding factor in determining the religion's status.
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by gunblade712
Muhammad s.a.w have mentioned in one of his hadith which roughly translated to : "There are four people who will never go wrong, follow them. The prophet, the sahabah, the tabi'in, and the tabi'it tabi'in".
And why can they (these four people) can never go wrong? In Hinduism, even the Gods can be wrong at times - for example, Indra attacked and kidnapped the pregnant wife (Kayadu) of a demon king, Hiranyakasipu but saved by the Divine Sage, Narada stating Indra was wrong in doing so. So what do your Muhammad meant that this four people can never go wrong?
Imam Shafi'e, Imam Maliki, Imam Hambali, and Imam Hanafi are the tabi'it tabi'in, the last in the line that we are to follow.
You follow people because they teach you to think like Muhammad? 
Or do you follow people because you cannot think for yourself?
I'm not sure if what you mean by Guru > Student relationship is 1 on 1 basis ONLY (meaning there can be only one guru per time), but what we believe is that after the Prophet s.a.w passed away, the Sahabah took over as the person of whom should be referred to.
In Diskha Gurukolam, there can be more than one student per Guru at any one time, however, in Shiksha Guru, it is usually One-on-One. The difference is, Shiksha Guru shows practical knowledge to the student, therefore it makes it easier for a Guru to concentrate teaching to a single student instead of a group of them.
What is the status of Muhammad's sahabats? Are they Diskha students (a group who studied under Muhammad) or at they Shishka students (one student after another). Did Muhammad finished the lessons for them - considering that he himself finished narrating Al Quran Verses at the end of his life (he died shortly after he finished if I'm not mistaken), so how is it possible for a man who just finished studying himself able to finish other people's tutelage? Also, did Muhammad told others (Muslims) that he was nominating Abu Bakar as a leader of the pack?
how is it, in Hinduism, that a student is taken up by a Guru?
A Guru must determine who qualifies to become a Student under him due to examination of the characteristics. A student who leans Arts of Brahmin must first have patience and compassion required to learn the Vedas (as it is not an easy task to recite, memorize and understand the verses). A student who wishes to learn Art of War, must have willingness (certain level of cruelty) to take life and at the same time, enough deattachment to life to sacrifice one's life for the greater good. Interests alone is not enough, you must have the right mindset and attitude to finish what you have started (tutelage).
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by Gunblade712
If all knowledge are from God, then it would be quite impossible, from a Hindu point of view, to share knowledge as it would be impossible for anyone to absorb God's knowledge.
How do Hinduism see the above situation and is there something else that I'm missing here..? Hope you can help us by sharing your thoughts. Thanks.
Sharing knowledge and absorbing knowledge (from God) is two different thing.
When a Guru shares his knowledge, he is not only giving knowledge obtained from God, but also the knowledge he had obtained through observation, experimentation and discussions with other Gurus. The Student benefits from this, and absorb the Guru's knowledge which becomes basic for him to further the knowledge through his own observation, experimentation and discussion with his peers and Guru. In doing so, you will recycle the knowledge and improve on it.
You may have problem understanding what absorb knowledge (from God) is like. I have meditated before (in Hindu temples, while waiting for Hindu friends to finish their prayers) and I have experienced it a few times. It is like being in a wireless network. Once you have obtained the peaceful mental state, knowledge will flow into you as thoughts and images. You cannot gasp them as they are like fish in the water and to do so, you will lose your focus in meditation and fall out.
Many people who have meditated before do not achieve this status because they have limited their own connectivity with the Divine. I knew one Hindu person who kept meditating onto Nothingness because he believes that we all came from nothingness and Nothingness is the true status of the Universe. In that state, he will get nothing but emptiness as he had closed his mind to knowledge and Light of God.
PS : No, I will not tell you anything of what I have seen, for such knowledge is not meant for everyone, and in some cases, could lead Man toward Insanity. |
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Sephiroth posted on 31-10-2013 12:00 PM
by gunblade712 And why can they (these four people) can never go wrong? In Hinduism, even the Gods can be wrong at times - for example, Indra attacked and kidnapped the pregnant wife (Kayadu) of a demon king, Hiranyakasipu but saved by the Divine Sage, Narada stating Indra was wrong in doing so. So what do your Muhammad meant that this four people can never go wrong?
Not sure why Hinduism believe that 'Gods can be wrong' though; we believe that Allah can never do something wrong. Perhaps to our little knowledge we see something as wrong, but Allah is Al-'Ilm, He knows what is wrong and what is right. The simple example for this is the story of Moses a.s. with Khidir a.s. You can check it their stories from across the internet. Let me know if you want me to share it with you.
What Muhammad s.a.w. meant for these people cannot go wrong is that He s.a.w is referring to their understandings of Islam especially when it comes to Akidah. Remember my explanations back then? These four people's strength on Akidah is to be referred to; while Fiqh can be discussed further according to the implementations. This is what Muhammad s.a.w meant, their understandings of Islam (especially Akidah) cannot go wrong.
You follow people because they teach you to think like Muhammad?
Or do you follow people because you cannot think for yourself?
Nope. I follow the Salafussoleh because their holds on Akidah is strong and their understanding of Islam is profound. It's because I can think for myself, that I choose to follow the Salafussoleh. Just like Hinduism, you DO believe in the concept of having a Guru, right? Well, our 'guru' studies Islam with the chain of knowledge that goes straight up to the Prophet s.a.w, with the Salafussoleh. 
In Diskha Gurukolam, there can be more than one student per Guru at any one time, however, in Shiksha Guru, it is usually One-on-One. The difference is, Shiksha Guru shows practical knowledge to the student, therefore it makes it easier for a Guru to concentrate teaching to a single student instead of a group of them.
What is the status of Muhammad's sahabats? Are they Diskha students (a group who studied under Muhammad) or at they Shishka students (one student after another). Did Muhammad finished the lessons for them - considering that he himself finished narrating Al Quran Verses at the end of his life (he died shortly after he finished if I'm not mistaken), so how is it possible for a man who just finished studying himself able to finish other people's tutelage? Also, did Muhammad told others (Muslims) that he was nominating Abu Bakar as a leader of the pack?
Well, I'm not really well-verse in Hinduism concept of Guru > Student relationship. What I know is that Muhammad s.a.w. finished his lessons to the Sahabah (He s.a.w mentioned this in his s.a.w last sermon). The lesson from the Quran cannot be finished until the end of time; the knowledge contains in it is so vast that people nowadays are still digging knowledge from it. Your question highlighted above doesn't quite make any sense as Muhammad s.a.w himself is a student with Allah as his teacher; you claimed that a person, with God as his teacher, cannot finish studying.
As for the question on Abu Bakar As-Siddiq, I believe this needs to be discussed in a different thread, preferably in Agama Islam & Muslim thread as this requires extensive explanation from Sirah and Hadith.
A Guru must determine who qualifies to become a Student under him due to examination of the characteristics. A student who leans Arts of Brahmin must first have patience and compassion required to learn the Vedas (as it is not an easy task to recite, memorize and understand the verses). A student who wishes to learn Art of War, must have willingness (certain level of cruelty) to take life and at the same time, enough deattachment to life to sacrifice one's life for the greater good. Interests alone is not enough, you must have the right mindset and attitude to finish what you have started (tutelage).
Ok. Thank you for the explanation.
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Sephiroth posted on 31-10-2013 12:10 PM
by Gunblade712
Ok thank you for sharing with us the explanation and your experience.
I'm digesting some good info about Hinduism here. However, Muhammad s.a.w doesn't only receive knowledge from God; he s.a.w. conveys it to human beings. He is like a beacon of light; Allah sends down His Blessings (the Quran) and Muhammad s.a.w. teach it to Mankind, both the Quran and the implementations of the Quran.
I'm also not quite sure whether your 'meditation' is equal to our 'daily prayer'. I do experience the same thing what you've experience but during my last sujud in prayer. I understand why you cannot share what you've obtained; sometimes the knowledge of the unseen cannot be shared and can only grasp by the person whom He had chosen.
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Author
Post time 29-10-2013 05:44 PM
