You call that Islamic weddings for lust?

Originally posted by Debmey at 11-7-2006 03:36 PM
You still can't prove your case that God endorsed polygamy in the Bible.

Jacob means heel catcher, in Hebrew, it carried the meaning of a supplanter, a deceiver. Didn't I tell you that the Bible ...

Who are you to say that his name means deceiver when the bible itself said that Jacob was named so because of the way he came out from his mother's womb?  Did David Park tell you so?

While I can agree with the word supplanter, I cannot agree with the meaning to be deceiver.

Supplant = substitute

Remember your god said earlier to Rebekah when she was carrying the twins

Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations [are] in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and [the one] people shall be stronger than [the other] people; and the elder shall serve the younger.  

The elder shall serve the younger, your god had predicted.  Did Jacob deceive Esau for the birthright?  No Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a pot of lentil porridge.

If you still insist on Jacob the deceiver, then I am so sorry for you for you hold to a god which is imperfect and blind, who kept rewarding people for their evil do's.  Every person mentioned in your holy scripture sinned and then your god rewarded them instead of punishing them.

eastrun

Originally posted by 13Friday at 11-7-2006 06:17 AM




Jesus did interprete certain laws to make that relevant like LOVE your enemies.

Did he brought new laws...NO..


"Janganlah  kamu  menyangka,  bahwa Aku  datang  untuk  meniadakan
     hukum  Taurat  atau  Kitab  para  Nabi.  Aku  datang  bukan  untuk
     meniadakannya, melainkan untuk menggenapinya. Karena  Aku  berkata
     kepadamu:  Sesungguhnya selama belum lenyap langit dan  bumi  ini,
     satu  iota  atau  satu titikpun tidak akan ditiadakan  dari  hukum
     Taurat,   sebelum  semuanya  terjadi.  Karena   itu   siapa   yang
     meniadakan  salah  satu  perintah  hukum  Taurat,  sekalipun  yang
     paling  kecil, dan mengajarkannya  demikian kepada orang  lain  ia
     akan  menduduki  tempat yang paling rendah dalam  kerajaan  sorga,
     tetapi  siapa yang melakukan dan melakukan dan mengajarkan  segala
     perintah-perintah  hukum Taurat, ia akan  mendudduki  tempat  yang
     tinggi didalam Kerajaan Sorga. ".......(Matius 5:17-19).

Debmey

Originally posted by samerosie at 11-7-2006 05:58 PM


Who are you to say that his name means deceiver when the bible itself said that Jacob was named so because of the way he came out from his mother's womb?  Did David Park tell you so?

While I ...

It doesn't matter, Jacob whom you call a prophet was devious and did deceived his brother.

So what else? How can you justify this stupid practice of polygamy endorsed in your religion?

Still it does not diminish the fact that your holy scriptures contains full of sinned people and your god rewarding them.  Is this the example that you want to follow and ask others to follow to?

You know Debmey, if you were preaching to me on Christianity based on your low knowledge of your holy scripture, I would be turned off.  I would think your god is blind and anti-justice.  What is the deal?

Btw, you still cannot give me any proof of your god banning polygamy.  All you gave me what the verse in Timothy, talking about bishops and deacons specifically.  That's not general, that is your god being specific.

Debmey

Originally posted by samerosie at 12-7-2006 01:15 PMStill it does not diminish the fact that your holy scriptures contains full of sinned people and your god rewarding them.  Is this the example that you want to follow and ask others to follow to?

God certainly did not reward them for their polygamy.

You know Debmey, if you were preaching to me on Christianity based on your low knowledge of your holy scripture, I would be turned off.  I would think your god is blind and anti-justice.  What is the deal?

You twisted & extrapolated scriptures and impose weird doctrine on Christianity. What would you expect when I corrected you?

Btw, you still cannot give me any proof of your god banning polygamy.  All you gave me what the verse in Timothy, talking about bishops and deacons specifically.  That's not general, that is your god being specific.
...

Did you follow the thread? Bishops and deacons are examples to follow and aspire. God says they cannot be polygamists. Thats why Christians ban polygamy. Its as simple as that.

Muslims practice polygamy and create problems in injustice. They even end up contradicting nature and themselves. And you are stuck.

kid

Originally posted by Debmey at 12-7-2006 01:29 PM
Bishops and deacons are examples to follow and aspire.

You mean bishop which not married is an examplary? So why?

If everyone follow this 'good' advice then world be be over.. no marriage no children, dont you agree?

God says they cannot be polygamists. Thats why Christians ban polygamy. Its as simple as that.

samerosie asked you many time, where in bible your god ban polygamy? it wouldnt take so hard to answer right?

Baiduri Othman

Don't forget too the non-Muslims in other countries like US, European nations, Japan etc too keep changing sex partners. So what's your problem? Heaven can't wait?????????

Debmey

Originally posted by kid at 12-7-2006 01:40 PM
You mean bishop which not married is an examplary? So why?

If everyone follow this 'good' advice then world be be over.. no marriage no children, dont you agree?

Did the Bible say bishops should not marry? where? Please show me.

samerosie asked you many time, where in bible your god ban polygamy? it wouldnt take so hard to answer right?
.

Bible holds up the virtue of mongamy, not once does it endorse polygamy. Isn't that enough?

Originally posted by Debmey at 12-7-2006 01:29 PM

God certainly did not reward them for their polygamy.  

Well, your god certainly DID NOT punish them for their polygamous lifestyle either!  

You抮e such a simpleton Debmey.  Read your bible, your god in fact rewarded them for having more than one wife.  Accordingly and this is all from your bible:-

Abraham the Patriarch had Sarah who gave him Issac.  Abraham committed adultery with Hagar who gave him Ishmael.  Then, Abraham married Keturah when Sarah died.  But Lo and Behold!  According to Gen 25:6 Abraham also had concubines.  

Not only Abraham had fornicated, he had many concubines as well and your god still rewarded him.  Let's see the type of reward Abraham was bestowed:-

Type of rewards
Lesser:  Gen 24:35 said it all.  
Grand:  Issac, through Jacob, through Levi, Moses and Aaron.
             Issac, through Jacob, through Judah, through Phares blah blah blah David, through David, Solomon, through Solomon blah blah blah blah Jesus!

Now, let me see, Abraham - polygamist, Jacob, polygamist, David, polygamist, Solomon polygamist hmmmm....? Life had been good for this polygamists..blessed, kingships,  judges, prophets etc.  

You twisted & extrapolated scriptures and impose weird doctrine on Christianity. What would you expect when I corrected you?

What twisted?  What extrapolated?  I based it all from your bible what?  If you think those are twisted and extrapolated, then it's the bible not me.  All plain in the English language ie Jacob was called Jacob which is to mean heel in Hebrew or Aramic because he came out from the womb clutching his brother's heel.  Easy.  That is what the bible said and suddenly, you yourself extrapolated it by saying Jacob means deceiver because he deceived?  The bible did not say that.  What weird doctrine?  Polygamy is legal in Christianity?  Well, it's true, and again, all basing on your bible, no where god banned and punished the polygamists.  Instead, these polygamists were rewarded!  

Did you follow the thread? Bishops and deacons are examples to follow and aspire. God says they cannot be polygamists. Thats why Christians ban polygamy. Its as simple as that.

What a strange doctrine you extrapolated Debmey!  It says in 1Ti that if you DESIRE to become bishops and deacons, then those are the conditions to be followed which is fair.  It does not specifically BAN polygamy. But of course, your bishops and deacons remain unmarried because some MEN made the rule of cannot marry, cannot have family because family life is distracting.  Your god did not say cannot marry at all!  Paul said, they can marry one wife and have children and rule in both houses (god's and their's), no problem.

Muslims practice polygamy and create problems in injustice. They even end up contradicting nature and themselves. And you are stuck.

I am not stuck.  Muslims are not stuck.  Our God give us a choice, have one wife or have four, but if you have more than one wife, you must first do this and that, ensure this and that, fulfil this and that and if you believe you can't do all those,it is better to only have one wife.  It is our choices given my our Almighty God but it seems to me, what your god said in your bible is being ignored and instead you chose to follow some Man-made laws and swear it by your god's name...in vain.

[ Last edited by  samerosie at 12-7-2006 03:34 PM ]

Originally posted by Debmey at 12-7-2006 02:24 PM

Bible holds up the virtue of mongamy, not once does it endorse polygamy. Isn't that enough?

LOL, let me repeat yeah, from your bible yeah, Abraham polygamist and kept concubines, Jacob polygamist and slept with his wives maids, David polygamist and oh err...killed a man for his wife, Solomon polygamist and through their seed, they were rewarded with Jesus!  How is it that the bible holds up the virtue of monogamous life?  Because of 1 Ti that provides a condition of anyone who wants to become bishops or deacons?  What about the pope?  He aint married and your god said, it is not good for man to be alone.

[ Last edited by  samerosie at 12-7-2006 03:33 PM ]

Debmey

Originally posted by samerosie at 12-7-2006 03:23 PM
Well, your god certainly DID NOT punish them for their polygamous lifestyle either!  

Not true, if you read Abraham, Isaac and Solomon's life, most of their problems came because of polygamy or extramarital se-x.
Thats the Bible's judgment on these people. You need to read the Bible in its entirety my friend. But I bet you have never read it.

You抮e such a simpleton Debmey.  Read your bible, your god in fact rewarded them for having more than one wife.  Accordingly and this is all from your bible:-

Abraham the Patriarch had Sarah who gave him Issac.  Abraham committed adultery with Hagar who gave him Ishmael.  Then, Abraham married Keturah when Sarah died.  But Lo and Behold!  According to Gen 25:6 Abraham also had concubines.   

Not only Abraham had fornicated, he had many concubines as well and your god still rewarded him.  Let's see the type of reward Abraham was bestowed:-

Thats why there was strife in the family, Ishmael was not a reward. Thats why Ishmael didn't get the inheritance.
Yes Abraham had concubines, God did not endorse it nor reward him for it.

Type of rewards
Lesser:  Gen 24:35 said it all.  
Grand:  Issac, through Jacob, through Levi, Moses and Aaron.
             Issac, through Jacob, through Judah, through Phares blah blah blah David, through David, Solomon, through Solomon blah blah blah blah Jesus!

Now, let me see, Abraham - polygamist, Jacob, polygamist, David, polygamist, Solomon polygamist hmmmm....? Life had been good for this polygamists..blessed, kingships,  judges, prophets etc.

Thats God's mercy, not reward.
God did not punish the children for the father's fault.

QUOTE:
You twisted & extrapolated scriptures and impose weird doctrine on Christianity. What would you expect when I corrected you?
What twisted?  What extrapolated?  I based it all from your bible what?  If you think those are twisted and extrapolated, then it's the bible not me.  All plain in the English language ie Jacob was called Jacob which is to mean heel in Hebrew or Aramic because he came out from the womb clutching his brother's heel.  Easy.  That is what the bible said and suddenly, you yourself extrapolated it by saying Jacob means deceiver because he deceived?  The bible did not say that.  What weird doctrine?  Polygamy is legal in Christianity?  Well, it's true, and again, all basing on your bible, no where god banned and punished the polygamists.  Instead, these polygamists were rewarded!

And I have shown you clearly how you misinterpreted scriptures.

QUOTE:
Did you follow the thread? Bishops and deacons are examples to follow and aspire. God says they cannot be polygamists. Thats why Christians ban polygamy. Its as simple as that.
What a strange doctrine you extrapolated Debmey!  It says in 1Ti that if you DESIRE to become bishops and deacons, then those are the conditions to be followed which is fair.  It does not specifically BAN polygamy. But of course, your bishops and deacons remain unmarried because some MEN made the rule of cannot marry, cannot have family because family life is distracting.  Your god did not say cannot marry at all!  Paul said, they can marry one wife and have children and rule in both houses (god's and their's), no problem.

Bishops and deacons can get married.
Where is it in the Bible that says they can't? Please show me.

QUOTE:
Muslims practice polygamy and create problems in injustice. They even end up contradicting nature and themselves. And you are stuck.
I am not stuck.  Muslims are not stuck.  Our God give us a choice, have one wife or have four, but if you have more than one wife, you must first do this and that, ensure this and that, fulfil this and that and if you believe you can't do all those,it is better to only have one wife.  It is our choices given my our Almighty God but it seems to me, what your god said in your bible is being ignored and instead you chose to follow some Man-made laws and swear it by your god's name...in vain..

You are stuck.
You tried to justify it with taking care of widows when it clearly is not. Mo married virgins too.
You tried to say there are more women than men but thats ridiculous. There are naturally more males born than females.
You claim that polygamists must be fair to all his wives but Mo wasn't.
In the end, it was nothing more than lust.

Not true, if you read Abraham, Isaac and Solomon's life, most of their problems came because of polygamy or extramarital se-x. Thats the Bible's judgment on these people. You need to read the Bible in its entirety my friend. But I bet you have never read it.

If those were true, then can you please cite me an event where the bible explicitly judged these polygamists and extramarital affairs to be bad?

Thats why there was strife in the family, Ishmael was not a reward. Thats why Ishmael didn't get the inheritance.

Can you then cite an example from the bible where the strife of the family was caused by your god as a punishment for Abraham?  As I recall, in the bible, your god blessed and rewarded Ishmael too;

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation." Gen. 17:15-20,

Yes Abraham had concubines, God did not endorse it nor reward him for it.

If so, please cite a verse from your bible  to show that your god did not endorse it nor reward him for it.  And please, don抰 put words into your god抯 mouth.  Your god also blessed Ishmael because of Abraham, because Ishmael was also Abraham抯 son, even though your god knew that Ishmael抯 mother was only a maidservant, not legal wife!

I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring. Genesis 21:13

Thats God's mercy, not reward.

Gen 24:35        And the LORD hath blessed my master greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses.

You do understand the difference between GIVE and MERCY do you?

God did not punish the children for the father's fault.  

And yet this statement contradicts your earlier statement on Ishmael :- Thats why there was strife in the family, Ishmael was not a reward. Thats why Ishmael didn't get the inheritance.

And I have shown you clearly how you misinterpreted scriptures.

No, I didn抰.  As exactly how the verse is written in the bible, that抯 exactly how I read it to you.  It was just copy and paste and if the bible抯 English language is not clear enough, I dunno man, there is something wrong with the Singapore education system.

Bishops and deacons can get married.  Where is it in the Bible that says they can't? Please show me.

I never said they cannot, I said they could.  I was being specific about the pope being celibate and the fact that bishops and deacons stay celibate in this era because some men believe that family life is distracting and made it a law.

You tried to justify it with taking care of widows when it clearly is not. Mo married virgins too.  

Never once in my post up there said they should only marry widows.

You tried to say there are more women than men but thats ridiculous. There are naturally more males born than females.

Can you please show me where I have said that?

You claim that polygamists must be fair to all his wives but Mo wasn't.

Can you cite an example where the Prophet was not just to his wives?

In the end, it was nothing more than lust.

Oh yeah, you have plenty of that in your holy scripture too, don抰 forget.

[ Last edited by  samerosie at 12-7-2006 05:34 PM ]

I feel sorry for your Debmey, for you to see your own holy book in a negative light and for me, a non Christian to see it in a positive view.

Debmey

Originally posted by samerosie at 12-7-2006 05:24 PM
If those were true, then can you please cite me an event where the bible explicitly judged these polygamists and extramarital affairs to be bad?

Sure, look at solomon. He had a lot of wives, he back slid in his latter years and even commit idolatry due to the influence of those wives.
Look at Abraham, Ishmael was born and broke the family, the Bible explicitly say that Ishmael was born of the flesh while Isaac was born of the Spirit.
Look at Jacobs' life. It too was strife born because of his many wives and children.

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation." Gen. 17:15-20,

Did the Bible say it was a reward for polygamy?
Nope, Ishmael was blessed because he was the seed of Abraham. But ultimately Ishmael did not get the inheritance from Abraham because he was born out of wedlock, read carefully.

If so, please cite a verse from your bible  to show that your god did not endorse it nor reward him for it.  And please, don抰 put words into your god抯 mouth.  Your god also blessed Ishmael because of Abraham, because Ishmael was also Abraham抯 son, even though your god knew that Ishmael抯 mother was only a maidservant, not legal wife!

No, its the other way around, you need to show that Abraham was blessed because of his polygamy and not teh other way around.

Thats God's mercy, not reward.
Gen 24:35        And the LORD hath blessed my master greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses.

You do understand the difference between GIVE and MERCY do you?

Don't play bait and switch here. I was refering directly to the lineage of Jesus thru Solomon, not this.
You sneaky little muslim boy.

And yet this statement contradicts your earlier statement on Ishmael :- Thats why there was strife in the family, Ishmael was not a reward. Thats why Ishmael didn't get the inheritance.

Yup, there was strife directly as a result of the illegitimate birth.
But Ishmael was still blessed because he was Abraham's son, and that was only long after Ishmael left Abraham's family. Go read carefully.

QUOTE:
And I have shown you clearly how you misinterpreted scriptures.
No, I didn抰.  As exactly how the verse is written in the bible, that抯 exactly how I read it to you.  It was just copy and paste and if the bible抯 English language is not clear enough, I dunno man, there is something wrong with the Singapore education system.

I said misinterpret, I didn't say mistranslate, you don't even know the difference, how to debate?

QUOTE:
Bishops and deacons can get married.  Where is it in the Bible that says they can't? Please show me.
I never said they cannot, I said they could.  I was being specific about the pope being celibate and the fact that bishops and deacons stay celibate in this era because some men believe that family life is distracting and made it a law.

There is no pope in the Bible. Can you show me where the word 'pope' is found in the Bible?
Bishops and deacons never stayed celibate ever you dummy. don't invent nonsence.

QUOTE:
You tried to justify it with taking care of widows when it clearly is not. Mo married virgins too.  
Never once in my post up there said they should only marry widows.

You muslims did. I broke that argument and you have no reply.

You tried to say there are more women than men but thats ridiculous. There are naturally more males born than females.
Can you please show me where I have said that?.

check thru the thread, thats what you muslims said.

QUOTE:
You claim that polygamists must be fair to all his wives but Mo wasn't.
Can you cite an example where the Prophet was not just to his wives?.

Didn't he had a favourite wife in Aisha?

QUOTE:
In the end, it was nothing more than lust.
Oh yeah, you have plenty of that in your holy scripture too, don抰 forget.

Yep, it was lust alright.

Originally posted by Debmey at 12-7-2006 05:55 PM
Sure, look at solomon. He had a lot of wives, he back slid in his latter years and even commit idolatry due to the influence of those wives.

Look at Abraham, Ishmael was born and broke the family, the Bible explicitly say that Ishmael was born of the flesh while Isaac was born of the Spirit

.

Look at Jacobs' life. It too was strife born because of his many wives and children.

1, 2 , 3 above you gave.  Well Debmey that's what you say.  The objective here is for your to show proof from the bible, verses that explicitly show that your god's made those as punishment to these polygamists, or even verses from the bible that your god says that say having more than one wife is bad.  

Is it so difficult Debmey to show me the verses?

You know what Debmey, it's a waste of time discussing with you because you're such a twister.  I find myself repeating again and again and not progressing forward to satisfy your ignoramus mind.

Everybody can read them here, they know so you dont have to proclaim to be the winner after you've read this post.

Oh btw, I'm not a boy, I've been here for 2 years and everybody know I'm an adult, female.    2 years and you don't know Debmey?  Didn't my nick give it away?  Hmmmm ...and you say that we are the one who are stuck eh?  Andy pity you to have to resort to calling me sneaky and dummy eh?  Little singaporean boy?

[ Last edited by  samerosie at 13-7-2006 11:49 AM ]

Debmey

God does not explicitly punish polygamy in the Bible but he sure did not endorse it but condemns it as I have shown.It also shows us the effects of polygamy and the troubles that came with it.
I know my Bible samerosie, you can't twist scriptures in front of me.

And God's stance is different from outright endorsement for 4 wives under islam which does nothing but fulfills the lust of muslim men. .

I know my Bible samerosie, you can't twist scriptures in front of me.
----------
Then it would be very easy.  Show me the verses from your bible that explicitly shows your god condems it.  If you can't don't bother posting a response to me.

Debmey

Show me where in the Quran does Allah condemn smoking, ganja and pornography?

Show me from the Quran the justifications of polygamy.

Itu je lah modal ko.