THE EXISTENCE OF GOD FROM ISLAM'S PERSPECTIVE

Islam teaches that the existence of God can be known through His numerous 'signs' or 'evidences' in the universe. God does not have a shape or size or form. He is not trapped by the space-time dimension in which we are trapped. Islam makes us observe everything around us, and then claims that all the beautiful micro- and macro- systems in the universe proclaim the presence of a beneficent and merciful Creator, without whose beneficence and mercy, nothing in the universe could have ever existed. In fact, Islam claims that God is the 'necessary' as well as 'sufficient' condition for the existence of everything in this Universe.

Can anyone disprove this claim?

barney50

KENNKID,

I disapprove that. You have yet to show HIS presence so how can you prove o HIS existence? What signs are you talking about? Please explain one by one instead of saying in general. I'm damn sure of my existence because I can show proof but what about GOD? Just do not quote and say it says so but from your own view point proof to me of HIS existence.

Originally posted by barney50 at 11-7-2006 10:45 AM
KENNKID,

I disapprove that. You have yet to show HIS presence so how can you prove o HIS existence? What signs are you talking about? Please explain one by one instead of saying in general. I'm  ...

I don't need your approval. So your 'disapproval'  does not mean anything to me. I only asked if anyone can 'disprove' the claim.. Pls check the dictionary

[ Last edited by  KENNKID at 11-7-2006 02:09 PM ]

Oreng

I think the issue is not about existence of God. Barney also believe in the existence of God. The difference in is in the method of recognising God's existence. Kennkid has mentioned about 'signs'. But Barney does not see any sign. I am interested to know what method barney use to recognise God's existence (Surely not by crafting one using clay on your own).

Another difference is may be about  the source for accepting the method. In Islam, Quran shows to the mankind what method to use ie by thinking about 'signs'. May be Bhagadva Gita is silent about 'signs'. Then, I am also interested to know from Barney what Bhavadva Gita says about your accepted method (Please dont create your own method, otherwise your own method is not recognised by your 'holy' book).

Originally posted by KENNKID at 11-7-2006 08:28 AM
Islam teaches that the existence of God can be known through His numerous 'signs' or 'evidences' in the universe. God does not have a shape or size or form. He is not trapped by the space-time dime ...

god exist in a different set of rules. e.g. he is all seeing but he has no eyes. what it means is that god do not have eys such as you and me, with pupil, retina, optic nerves and linked up to brain to see but he is able to see. realise that this concept is very important becos if he has eyes he would suffer the same limitations as human being. he can have myopia, may have cataract, may need glasses.

it also work the other way round. if i have eyes like god, what is there to stop me from being god. but if i am god, i am sure the world wouldnt be like what it is.

in short, you cannot disprove the existence of god or Allah for muslims without disproving your own existence. and that is impossible. however, one could easily disprove gods who are humanlike or humanoid in character or even disprove the belief of non-existence of god (atheism).

barney50

1. responded by KENNKID:I don't need your approval. So your 'disapproval'  does not mean anything to me. I only asked if anyone can 'disprove' the claim.. Pls check the dictionary..

Copy the Code

Come on...you cannot just turn away when I  say I disapprove the claim. You started teh game and I would like to see how you end it. So, be a man and prove to me. Show me the signs that GOd exist according to your belief. Don't worry about what my religion says. I'm not going to bring that to oppose you when I disapprove yours. It is more important on how an individual perceive GOD. How one reconizes GOD without the aid of scriptures, be aware that there is a Supreme Being who is watching us all and how you can feel HIS presence. That is what I want to know from you so come..tell me wbout it or do you need the aid of Quran to establish HIS existence?

yusmar

Originally posted by barney50 at 11-7-2006 10:45 AM
KENNKID,

I disapprove that. You have yet to show HIS presence so how can you prove o HIS existence? What signs are you talking about? Please explain one by one instead of saying in general. I'm  ...

Dear barney50,

some people need to see a form or a symbol that says god exist....for example christians believe in Jesus pbuh as God but for me....i don't need all that. God is the Almighty....the problem is the notion that anyone knows God. Since you can never fully comprehend what God is, it is meaningless to ask 'how did such a being come into existence?'; to ask such a question puts limits on what 'such a being' is. These limits would be invalid and arbitrary.

I  don't know how God thinks or why God does things that is beyond my understanding but you know what......GOD is GOD and nobody knows why God does things the way God does it....God knows and hears everything. The fact that I am here......believing in him and his presence.....seeing with my eyes open is prove enough of my believe in him.

thank you.

eastrun

Originally posted by barney50 at 11-7-2006 04:24 PM
responded by KENNKID:I don't need your approval. So your 'disapproval'  does not mean anything to me. I only asked if anyone can 'disprove' the claim.. Pls check the dictionary..

Come on...you  ...

The Truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt (Quran 3:60)

barney50

eastrun,

You say the truth comes from Allah alone whereas I believe ''TRUTH is GOD" and nothing else that matters.

Oreng

Barney,

Can we say 'GOD IS TRUTH' or 'GOD IS TRUTH AND TRUTH IS GOD' ?

barney50

Dear yusmar,

I could not have said better. But remember that all that is happening to you, me and all the rest in the world are not the doing of GOD but of our onw doing. Rememeber that HE does not interfer in our own free will. Man choese to do what he wants to do according to his karma and GOD is only a wittness to all these action of man.  Did you read the news of bomd blast of commuter train in Mumbai on Tuesday, is it the work of GOD? Surely not, it is the work of some sick minded psycho who thinks by killing innocent people everything would be fine in his world. We do not know for sure if it was religious fanatic or political motive but there are people who think creating chaos and killing innocent lives would solf their problems or attract attention of world leaders of their quest for whatever aim in their life.

kid

Originally posted by barney50 at 11-7-2006 10:45 AM
....how can you prove o HIS existence? What signs are you talking about? Please explain one by one instead of saying in general.

Let me interrupt this... I think kennkid has no problem if I answer your question

Barney,

The fact is, the evidence or signs of God had been all around us to see and learn. In Islam Allah encourage us to see His sign and think of them as one way to prove His existence.

Your surrounding

Let us look around us. What do we see; we see cars, buildings, planes, boats, bridges railways and so on. All of which have been constructed by mankind. In other words, Man can utilize the resources available but he cannot make the resources. Then, if we look again we can see animals, vegetation, birds, mountains and valleys, the sky, stars, moon and the sun, along with mankind.

Where did they all come from? These are the things that man did not make. Do they just happen to be there? Can man create an egg or a seed? Even the woman comes into the world with her life-time supply of eggs. So, Man is not a creator, he can only utilize the resources, which are already provided.

Barney's body

But now let us not go too far, rather lets take a look at the closest thing, your body!

Just take this for example, in the moment you read my writing, your eyes received millions of electrical waves from the light that emitted by your monitor screen, they are then 'transported' in a flawless complex system to some part of your brain, which then 'translate' those millions commands in versatile process so those signals could be 'interpreted' as an 'image', which then transfered to another part of your brain who then let you 'see' those 'image' as my writing.

Those processes of 'electrical waves', 'transport', 'translate', 'interpret', 'see' are lightning fast! so that you could never notice the entire process yourselves, nor scientist can measured it correctly until now, nor scientist can fully understand how brain could do such amazing things.

Human's technology

In term of computer technology, it took billion gazillions CPU calculations to achieve the same effect, we need the entire surface of the world just to be filled with the latest PIV 3-4Ghz computers just in order to process this whole effect.

We dont have to see something to believe it

In the big desert, we may see track and bones of a camel for example, desert's people can tell the age of the camel, the sex of the camel, whether the camels were lightly loaded or more heavily loaded and to what tribe the camels belonged, simply from the tracks left in the desert. So, we do not have to actually see something to believe in it.

This is true for God. Man cannot see God. We see Him by His signs. His signs are His creation. A mountain reflects the glory of its Creator, it cannot do anything other than be a mountain.

This is similar for every aspect of God? creation. While our own tongue may be denying God, our bodies are functioning exactly as He created them. In our own life-times our heart will pump about 40 railway wagons of blood in each month, and a river of blood in our life-time, generally with no help from ourselves. This is an example of the signs of God!


If you see, what I talked just a little things about human body system, even not yet mentioning how your brain and muscle response to what I'm writing. Not even mentioning other signs of God in our body and our surrounding.

Who taught you?

See..you've asking for an answer in this thread, because your mind need answer for yourself, the urge to know of it, .. who taught you to do so? I suggest the Creator, He is the one who taught you to get an answer for yourself.

There are many such examples, which we take for granted simply because we don? want to believe in a Creator

Originally posted by kid at 12-7-2006 12:41 PM


Let me interrupt this... I think kennkid has no problem if I answer your question

No problem Kid. I posted this to invite as many participants as possible. I will respond soon.

barney50

So kid you would like to come in defence of KENNKID?

OK. I do not mind but I would prefer KENNKID as he was the one that brought upthis subject. Anyway it does not matter as you o behalf of KENNKID which means you speak on forf Islam.

1. responded by kid:Let us look around us. What do we see; we see cars, buildings, planes, boats, bridges railways and so on. All of which have been constructed by mankind. In other words, Man can utilize the resources available but he cannot make the resources. Then, if we look again we can see animals, vegetation, birds, mountains and valleys, the sky, stars, moon and the sun, along with mankind.
   
2. 
   
3. Where did they all come from? These are the things that man did not make. Do they just happen to be there? Can man create an egg or a seed? Even the woman comes into the world with her life-time supply of eggs. So, Man is not a creator, he can only utilize the resources, which are already provided.

Copy the Code

The resources you mentioned has been in existence so long that even science has difficulty in asserting the exact period. Anyway that does not prove the existence of GOD because no conclusive proof that it was created by your so called Allah except what hans been writen in the Quran which is hersay.

1. But now let us not go too far, rather lets take a look at the closest thing, your body!
   
2. 
   
3. Just take this for example, in the moment you read my writing, your eyes received millions of electrical waves from the light that emitted by your monitor screen, they are then 'transported' in a flawless complex system to some part of your brain, which then 'translate' those millions commands in versatile process so those signals could be 'interpreted' as an 'image', which then transfered to another part of your brain who then let you 'see' those 'image' as my writing.
   
4. 
   
5. Those processes of 'electrical waves', 'transport', 'translate', 'interpret', 'see' are lightning fast! so that you could never notice the entire process yourselves, nor scientist can measured it correctly until now, nor scientist can fully understand how brain could do such amazing things.

Copy the Code

Well in short that has been invented by way of cable television. So no big deal here. We as far as life form is concern are here in existence for millions of years and through evolution have come thus far and for you information there are more intelligent creatures than man out there in other planets too. But that does not proof of creation  by  your so called Allah.

1. In term of computer technology, it took billion gazillions CPU calculations to achieve the same effect, we need the entire surface of the world just to be filled with the latest PIV 3-4Ghz computers just in order to process this whole effect.

Copy the Code

I think you need to retract that. Do you know the size of the first moblie phone and what you possess now? All this can be zipped in  no time. That is the uniqueness of human brain. So the source lies in our brain and not else where.

1. In the big desert, we may see track and bones of a camel for example, desert's people can tell the age of the camel, the sex of the camel, whether the camels were lightly loaded or more heavily loaded and to what tribe the camels belonged, simply from the tracks left in the desert. So, we do not have to actually see something to believe in it..........

Copy the Code

The Natives of America [Red Indians] too could tell that and they too know the coming of spring, summer or winter from looking at the surroundings. The signs you mention do not reflect of KENNKID's claim. I want exact proof of GOD's exixtence which you have yet to proof. Not from what your Quran says because it has already been told in our scriptures some 4,000 years ago. Huh! But when you mentioned signs of GOD in our body, that is what I've been waiting for. So KENNKID agrees GOD is in our soul? And you agree too? Otherwise all you claims of this sign and that sign is of no value.

1. See..you've asking for an answer in this thread, because your mind need answer for yourself, the urge to know of it, .. who taught you to do so? I suggest the Creator, He is the one who taught you to get an answer for yourself.
   
2. 
   
3. There are many such examples, which we take for granted simply because we don? want to believe in a Creator

Copy the Code

No, I'm asking KENNKID, as he does not believe our atman is GOD. This threadwhich was created by KENNKID based on his believe in the Quran but my question was for him to proof from his own point of view and not the Quran. That is why I say realize yourself first before you realize GOD.

kid

So kid you would like to come in defence of KENNKID?

OK. I do not mind but I would prefer KENNKID as he was the one that brought upthis subject. Anyway it does not matter as you o behalf of KENNKID which means you speak on forf Islam.

No, we all here not defending a person, and in fact not defending Islam either as we Muslim believe Islam doesn't need to defended, Allah guide those who He will, true path is dintincly clear from the crooked path. We are in discussion, remember?

The resources you mentioned has been in existence so long that even science has difficulty in asserting the exact period. Anyway that does not prove the existence of GOD because no conclusive proof that it was created by your so called Allah except what hans been writen in the Quran which is hersay.

Exactly.. way ahead before we ever exist something must created these all, maybe it doesn't prove anything to you, but surely raise a question... who in the beginning created these all? If you dont agree that God created that all, then who barney?

Well in short that has been invented by way of cable television. So no big deal here.

I'm surprise you miss the point quite far, barney TV is nothing compared to the brain. Tv works passively by receiving preconfigured wave in specific length through antenna and convert to image. That's it. It wasn't 1/million of what brain capable to do, I wont talk further about this, it is not worth, this is only general scintific that most knows.

We as far as life form is concern are here in existence for millions of years and through evolution have come thus far and for you information there are more intelligent creatures than man out there in other planets too. But that does not proof of creation  by  your so called Allah.

If there exist more intelligent creature than human (I dont know any... not scientist either) it doesn't matter though, the point was... that creature was never able to create themselves, they must be created, and they follow some set of rule so that a tree never produce an animal, human never born a tree for example.

Who set control all of these? Evolution which you mentioned if exist (but I dont believe in evolution) surely follow some set of rules, if not maybe our predecessor turned to a monkey, not to a human like now. Whatever it is, the rule always towards the good pattern, prove me wrong.

Thus exist some rule and elements in each created beings in this universe, including us. now we found DNA a unique element in our body that set the rule physical apperance and function for our next generation.

And does human able to creat DNA and make a new living thing? Nope... not even talked about creating a soul.

So you see... what we are talking, in scientific means, there exist power beyond us, that is Creator Himself.

I think you need to retract that. Do you know the size of the first moblie phone and what you possess now? All this can be zipped in  no time. That is the uniqueness of human brain. So the source lies in our brain and not else where.[quote]

Whatever small the mobile phone human can create, or whatever the advance of technology, are all the result of brain's work. But does human able to create brain? how about soul? that the killer question barney.

[quote]The Natives of America [Red Indians] too could tell that and they too know the coming of spring, summer or winter from looking at the surroundings. The signs you mention do not reflect of KENNKID's claim. I want exact proof of GOD's exixtence which you have yet to proof.

If you carefully read my sentence it doesn't mean to prove and nor as proof.

We can know that a car just passing by from the sounds left, although we dont see the car itself, but we know.
That shows that we can know the existence of God by looking at sign around us. That's my point.

And no... I'm not agree with you that human could be God as we are only one of the created being, sign of God can be found everywhere including animal, tree etc, but they are not God either. Sign is sign in reality, not in metaphorical term.

No, I'm asking KENNKID, as he does not believe our atman is GOD. This threadwhich was created by KENNKID based on his believe in the Quran but my question was for him to proof from his own point of view and not the Quran. That is why I say realize yourself first before you realize GOD.

Allright, I think I'm also done, quite surpise when I talked about the amazing things in our surrounding, but you talked about cable television. I wasn't even discussing anything based on Qur'an yet.

Sorry barney, I think let kennkid handle next discussion.

Thanks

yusmar

Originally posted by barney50 at 12-7-2006 09:52 AM
Dear yusmar,

I could not have said better. But remember that all that is happening to you, me and all the rest in the world are not the doing of GOD but of our onw doing. Rememeber that HE does  ...

I fully agree.....people will always blame the religion and god where else it is their understanding of certain issues which is questionable....and yes....i read about the train bombing which I believe is a despicable terrorist act on innocent people......but you know what....it is the mentality of the people.....thinking that they can achieve something out of murdering the innocents......which is totally wrong.

but that is people.....as long as there is no understanding and tolerance....and as long as the way they think is on that long straight road.....without  bothering to expand their knowledge on humanity.....this monstrousity  will continue....and that will be a sad day for mankind.

Thank you

barney50

1. No, we all here not defending a person, and in fact not defending Islam either as we Muslim believe Islam doesn't need to defended, Allah guide those who He will, true path is dintincly clear from the crooked path. We are in discussion, remember?

Copy the Code

Are you sure about that? But most of the time I see Muslims defend the Quran and hadith when question of its contradiction. Anway that is a different matter totally. Yes, we are in discussio here so let us discuss.

1. Exactly.. way ahead before we ever exist something must created these all, maybe it doesn't prove anything to you, but surely raise a question... who in the beginning created these all? If you dont agree that God created that all, then who barney?

Copy the Code

Why do you believe something mmsut have created it? It could have just sprouted by itself, the grass, plants mountains and all could have slowly sprouted from earth whci contains many chemical components that could trigger growth of elements. Even today we see here scientist discovered new species and so on. So, still there is no proof of creator except the book which of cource was written by man.

1. I'm surprise you miss the point quite far, barney TV is nothing compared to the brain. Tv works passively by receiving preconfigured wave in specific length through antenna and convert to image. That's it. It wasn't 1/million of what brain capable to do, I wont talk further about this, it is not worth, this is only general scintific that most knows.

Copy the Code

Yeh! I have already told you earlier the uniqueness of human brain which we fail to realize so let us skip that for now.

1. If there exist more intelligent creature than human (I dont know any... not scientist either) it doesn't matter though, the point was... that creature was never able to create themselves, they must be created, and they follow some set of rule so that a tree never produce an animal, human never born a tree for example.

Copy the Code

Come on let us not be sarcastic. We all know about gene and it would only produce according to gene. No human would give birth to a chimp, would they? It is not who set the control as I have said it follows the gene. No rules but gene that works in that way. Why do you think a tree had been ordered by the creator to produce leaves. flowers, than fruit? There are trees that neither produce flowers nor fruits. These are all growth of genetic. Will only grow according to its genes. Don't forget about clone which have been acheived in this century.

1. And no... I'm not agree with you that human could be God as we are only one of the created being, sign of God can be found everywhere including animal, tree etc, but they are not God either. Sign is sign in reality, not in metaphorical term.

Copy the Code

You talk about sign but it does not proof of GOD's existence. I told you how we and all the rest of natural elements could have appeared here but that does not proof that there is a creator behind alll these. But if you say we are breathing because the power we call GOD is with us than I might agree with you but when you say sign that is not reality but metaphor. Like the Christians would say quoting their bible the sign that the world is comming to an end and it has been told since the 16th entury but it is yet to end.

1. Allright, I think I'm also done, quite surpise when I talked about the amazing things in our surrounding, but you talked about cable television. I wasn't even discussing anything based on Qur'an yet.
   
2. 
   
3. Sorry barney, I think let kennkid handle next discussion.

Copy the Code

Well, I'm not done as you voluntered to answer for KENNKID and now you say you are done. So you cannot convience me of the existence of GOD, sorry Allah. The cable TV, I mean satellite TV is the development of the human mind which is able to produce a divice that would transmit direct telecast from country to country. It is the brain of human being not any other creatures but human beings. So who is superior here among other animals? It is human beings and the same human beings have the quality and uniqueness to turn this planet inot a paradise that your quran speaks of. Not some imaginable paradise which is beyond reach but only after death. Does that make sense?

Originally posted by KENNKID at 11-7-2006 08:28 AM
Islam teaches that the existence of God can be known through His numerous 'signs' or 'evidences' in the universe. God does not have a shape or size or form. He is not trapped by the space-time dime ...

Post Edited by Moderator.

* e d i t e d *  ...CLAIM TO TEACH THE BEST BUT DO THE WORST THING ....RAPING OWN DAUGHTER, CUTTING PPLS HEAD LIVE ON NET, KILLING PPL LIKE NOBODYS BUSINESS, RAPING AND KILLING INNOCENT GALS AND ETC....* e d i t e d *   ... HOW CAN YOU CLAIM ISLAM IS GOOD?  * e d i t e d *    

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[ Last edited by  DivinePonytail at 12-7-2006 10:49 PM ]

Originally posted by davetruchemic at 12-7-2006 10:08 PM


TO ME ISLAM IS A PIECE OF shit!!! CLAIM TO TEACH THE BEST BUT DO THE WORST THING ....RAPING OWN DAUGHTER, CUTTING PPLS HEAD LIVE ON NET, KILLING PPL LIKE NOBODYS BUSINESS, RAPING AND KILLING IN ...

Awat kamu ni, kat Christian thread kate kamu Islam, tuan Hajila, jangan kelentongla brother. dalam section pets pun kamu dok letak sape nak anjing liar, sape jumpe anjing kamu, contact kamu. usah dok kelentongla. Kalau saje nak burukkan Islam, ngaku jela. X yah kate diri tu pak haji ke ape ke.:geram:

Originally posted by Itsmylife at 12-7-2006 10:24 PM



Awat kamu ni, kat Christian thread kate kamu Islam, tuan Hajila, jangan kelentongla brother. dalam section pets pun kamu dok letak sape nak anjing liar, sape jumpe anjing kamu, contact kamu.  ...

BETUL KATA MU ....VERY SORRY ABOUT THAT.....