RIBA - INTEREST - USURY

FaithHealer3

Believe or not.. muslims equate Interest  with sex with mother.. thats plain stupidity

Riba, as defined by Islam, is any and all increases in your wealth which is not a direct result of your toil and sweat -- interest and bribes being only two of these many forms... And what sin is this I am talking about that tantamount to the sin of intercourse with one's own mother or father? The sin of riba or usury.
.. from Raja Petra Kamurudin.

The Prophet Muhammad (Sal-allahu-aleihi-wasallam) said, "A Dirham of usury a man devours with knowledge is greater than 36 fornications-- Narrated by Abdullah bin Hanjalah (Radi Allah Ta'lah Anhu); Ahmad and Darqutni transmitted it. Hadith No.2825 of Mishkat Al-Masabih.

The Prophet Muhammad (Sal-allahu-aleihi-wasallam) said, "Usury has got seventy divisions. The easiest division of them is a man's marrying his mother.-- Narrated by Abu Huraira (Radi Allah Ta'lah Anhu); Ibn Majah transmitted it. Hadith No.2826 of Mishkat Al-Masabih.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 34, Number 299:
Narrated 'Aun bin Abu Juhaifa: My father bought a slave who practiced the profession of cupping. (My father broke the slave's instruments of cupping). I asked my father why he had done so. He replied, "The Prophet forbade the acceptance of the price of a dog or blood, and also forbade the profession of tattooing, getting tattooed and receiving or giving Riba, (usury), and cursed the picture-makers."


http://www.malaysia-today.net/lo ... nned-cast-first.htm
http://www.road-to-heaven.com/hadith/riba_usury.htm
http://muttaqun.com/riba.html


[ Last edited by  FaithHealer3 at 20-7-2006 08:05 PM ]

FaithHealer3

Ariba ariba

how many muslims avoid Riba?


Riba (Usury) is of two major kinds:

   1.      Riba An-Nasia - Interest on lent money
   2.      Riba Al-Fadl - Taking a superior thing of the same kind of goods by giving more of the same kind of goods of inferior quality, eg.,dates of superior quality for dates of inferior quality in great amounts.



[ Last edited by  FaithHealer3 at 21-7-2006 04:59 PM ]

kid

Despite your accusation of stupidity, you might read again, I mean read again, read again...

"Riba, as defined by Islam, is any and all increases in your wealth which is not a direct result of your toil and sweat" .....  Isn't is one of the baeuty of Islam? I bet this hard to found in other religion, much less for atheism... sorry Faith..

and the sin is greater than fornications or marrying own mother...

in mathematical form

- Sin of Riba > Sin of fornications/marry own mother

but your equation

- Riba = sex with mother

So who is stupid? maybe you should look at the mirror...

And please refrain using foul language, this forum is not for school kid's cursing competition.

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by kid at 20-7-2006 08:34 AM
Despite your accusation of stupidity, you might read again, I mean read again, read again...

yeap i done reading and rereading about riba..  before opening this topic. thank you.

i just wanna show how unpractical islam is in real world. and what a hypo they are.

Originally posted by kid at 20-7-2006 08:34 AM
"Riba, as defined by Islam, is any and all increases in your wealth which is not a direct result of your toil and sweat" .....  Isn't is one of the baeuty of Islam? I bet this hard to found in other religion, much less for atheism... sorry Faith..

I don't see any beauty there.. but only silliness.

Most muslims know what is Riba.. and they know its forbidden in their religion.. yet they still partake in it.

The interest you earn from banks when you save money there, is "not direct result of your toils and sweat" but Riba.

The fact remains.. Its a sin for muslims to take or give interest and its reported that Muhammad forbid it and said the partaking in Riba is a sin as bad as having sex with ones mother. RAJA PETRA  said that NOT ME.. and it was confirmed by hadiths that MUHAMMAD SAID THAT. I don't know whats worse than that..

Muhammad forbid it.. so why muslims still partake in interest based banks? Whether you borrow money or save money, you are indulging in interest. Any transaction involving interest is a sin according to muslims. So why are the job dealing with interest are being taken over by muslims from non-muslim( who have no such crazy "sin" in their religion). Do they like to marry their mother or father?

Originally posted by kid at 20-7-2006 08:34 AM
And please refrain using foul language, this forum is not for school kid's cursing competition.

What foul language are you refering to?

FaithHealer3

Islamic banking.. is it Riba free?


Interest:

   1. A charge for a loan, usually a percentage of the amount loaned.
   2. An excess or bonus beyond what is expected or due.




[ Last edited by  FaithHealer3 at 21-7-2006 05:34 PM ]

RedChaSiew

islamic banking is just normal banking - FIXED INTEREST for a duration.
so you actually know how much it will cost ya.  


there are similar products in Buddhist banking as well as christian banking.

ever wonder why there is such silly notion as 'Islamic Banking' but no Buddhist banking or Hindu Banking?

anta

What a pity persons to both of you - FaithHealer3 and RedChaSiew!!!  I know you hate Islam very much, let me educate you a little bit, read the  following excerpts:

Islamic Banks: A Novelty No Longer Islamic banks: A Novelty No Longer

Lenders that avoid charging interest, in line with Koranic rules, are spreading -- even among Western institutions

When British banking giant HSBC Group (HBC ) began offering mortgages carefully formulated to meet Islamic banking practices last year in Malaysia, it was surprised that more than half of its customers were non-Muslim. What drew these customers to alternative financing that conforms to the strict dictates of Islam? Bank officials say that competitive pricing makes their Muslim-friendly mortgages -- which operate more like leases than loans -- competitive with traditional interest-based financing.
...
..
From Jakarta to Jeddah, 265 Islamic banks and other financial institutions are now operating in some 40 countries, with total assets that top $262 billion, according to organizers of the International Islamic Finance Forum, a semi-annual industry conference. That pot of money, the investment of which adheres to the Koran's prohibition against receiving or paying interest, has been steadily building since 1994, when Malaysia created the world's first Islamic interbank money market. Now Islamic banking has broadened its appeal well beyond the confines of faithful Muslims. Indeed, nearly one-quarter of all Islamic banking business in Malaysia is being transacted by non-Muslims.
...
...

Establishing Singapore as an Islamic Financial Hub
Establishing Singapore as an Islamic Financil HubCapitalising upon Singapore's strengths in banking and wealth management

Banking, Finance & Law Singapore
19 - 25 March 2005
Singapore plans legal changes to facilitate Islamic banking.
Singapore plans legal changes to facilitate Islamic banking.

The government is considering making changes to the legal system to make it easier for banks in Singapore to offer Islamic banking services. Singapore hopes to tap investors from Middle East and Southeast Asia to grow the current pool of more than $285 billion-assets managed in Singapore. Fund managers is one the key pillar of Singapore's finance industry, which employs 5% of the nation's workforce and accounts for more than 10% of the GDP.

Happy reading.

[ Last edited by  anta at 21-7-2006 11:56 PM ]

anta

Islamic Finance Gears Up
Mohammed El Qorchi

While gaining ground, the industry faces unique regulatory challenges
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Islamic finance is developing at a remarkable pace. Since its inception three decades ago, the number of Islamic financial institutions worldwide has risen from one in 1975 to over 300 today in more than 75 countries. They are concentrated in the Middle East and Southeast Asia (with Bahrain and Malaysia the biggest hubs), but are also appearing in Europe and the United States. Total assets worldwide are estimated to exceed $250 billion, and are growing at an estimated 15 percent a year (although cross-border data remain scarce).

Islamic financial products are aimed at investors who want to comply with the Islamic laws (Sharia) that govern a Muslim's daily life. These laws forbid giving or receiving interest (because earning profit from an exchange of money for money is considered immoral); mandate that all financial transactions be based on real economic activity; and prohibit investment in sectors such as tobacco, alcohol, gambling, and armaments. Islamic financial institutions are providing an increasingly broad range of many financial services, such as fund mobilization, asset allocation, payment and exchange settlement services, and risk transformation and mitigation. But these specialized financial intermediaries perform transactions using financial instruments compliant with Sharia principles.

....
....
Recent trends

In countries where Islamic banking is operating, its coverage and extent vary significantly from situations where the sector is entirely Islamic (Iran and Sudan), to others where conventional and Islamic systems coexist (Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, and the United Arab Emirates), to countries where there are one or two Islamic banks. The current trend seems to be toward separation between Islamic and conventional banks. Some countries have opted for a clear separation between these banks, while others have allowed conventional banks to set up Islamic windows, opening the way for some of the largest multinational banks to participate. Even large conventional banks in the United States and Europe have opened Islamic financing windows.


....
Source: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2005/12/qorchi.htm More details :



So, to FaithHealer and RedChaSew, another happy reading.

Islam is my way of life.

RedChaSiew

>>>
Lenders that avoid charging interest, in line with Koranic rules, are spreading -- even among Western institutions
<<<<<<



THEY ARE NOT `AVOID CHARGING` INTEREST..  NOT SURE IF YOU HAVE A JOB OR A MORTGAGE? HOW OLD ARE YOU?

IF YOU BUY A HOUSE AND GO FOR ISLAMIC BANKING  - THEY WILL QUOTE YOU A INTEREST FIXED FOR A TERM BUT THIS INTEREST RATE IS ONLY VERY SLIGHTLY LOWER THAN THE BLR BUT YOU HAVE TO LOCK IT IN FOR SAY 5 OR 10 YEARS. IF THE INTEREST RATES GOES DOWN DURING THIS TIME -- YOU STILL PAY THE INTEREST YOU HAVE AGREED TO PAY.

THIS IS NOTHING NEW - IT IS CALLED FIXED RATE LOAN IN BANKING TERMS.

SO THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN - JUST FANCY NEW TERMS LIKE 'BUDDHIST BANKING' WITH FREE VEGETARIAN SNACKS THROWN IN.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND ??

anta

RedChaSiew wrote:

THEY ARE NOT `AVOID CHARGING` INTEREST..  NOT SURE IF YOU HAVE A JOB OR A MORTGAGE? HOW OLD ARE YOU?

IF YOU BUY A HOUSE AND GO FOR ISLAMIC BANKING  - THEY WILL QUOTE YOU A INTEREST FIXED FOR A TERM BUT THIS INTEREST RATE IS ONLY VERY SLIGHTLY LOWER THAN THE BLR BUT YOU HAVE TO LOCK IT IN FOR SAY 5 OR 10 YEARS. IF THE INTEREST RATES GOES DOWN DURING THIS TIME -- YOU STILL PAY THE INTEREST YOU HAVE AGREED TO PAY.

THIS IS NOTHING NEW - IT IS CALLED FIXED RATE LOAN IN BANKING TERMS.

SO THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN - JUST FANCY NEW TERMS LIKE 'BUDDHIST BANKING' WITH FREE VEGETARIAN SNACKS THROWN IN.

Anta reply:

This is the usual misconception that we always find from people without knowledge or do not want to know about Islamic banking/finance or may be you are really worried and scared to the advancement of islamic banking/finance  to the mainstream.

An estimate of Islamic Finance industry is in excess of USD1.2 trillion with a growth rate of 15% pa ( http://www.euromoneyconferences.com/downloads/APBCWorkshopB.pdf).

In this forum, you are trying hard to relate interest to Islamic banking whereby Islamic teaching does not allow a fixed return on capital, as charging and receiving interest (riba) is forbidden.(http://www.islamic-bank.com/isla ... /1/Home/1/Home.jsp)

By the way, I have a job, I have a mortgage and my age... you judge yourself based on my writings. With regards to buying a house, the right term that you should refer to is "Murabaha":

"murabaha: Purchase and resale. Instead of lending out money, the capital provider purchases the desired commodity (for which the loan would have been taken out) from a third party and resells it at a predetermined higher price to the capital user. By paying this higher price over instalments, the capital user has effectively obtained credit without paying interest "
http://www.hsbcamanah.com/hsbc/amanah_banking/glossary#murabaha

"Murabaha is a contract for purchase and resale and allows the customer to make purchases without having to take out a loan and pay interest. Islamic Bank of Britain purchases the goods for the customer, and re-sells them to the customer on a deferred basis, adding an agreed profit margin. The customer then pays the sale price for the goods over instalments, effectively obtaining credit without paying interest"  
http://www.islamic-bank.com/isla ... ome.jsp#defMurabaha

There are many products and services that are being offered in the Islamic finance.

So, once again there is no such thing as INTEREST.
You may use your own term, however, as stated above, the contract does not involve interest.

Pls note that islamic finance was introduced only 30 plus years ago as opposed to the conventional counterparts for hundreds of years. But, the growth rate of islamic finance is remarkable.

If you want to know about Islamic finance, first of all, you should ask yourself, why on earth many of those conventional banks nowadays are promoting Islamic finance?

Even, the articles that I have posted earlier mentioned about the involvements of many non-muslims in the Islamic finance.
Ask yourself again, why?

Hope you understand.

More details: Welcome to HSBC Amanah
http://www.hsbcamanah.com/hsbc/amanah

[ Last edited by  anta at 22-7-2006 11:31 PM ]

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by anta at 22-7-2006 11:20 PM
This is the usual misconception that we always find from people without knowledge or do not want to know about Islamic banking/finance or may be you are really worried and scared to the advancement of islamic banking/finance  to the mainstream.

Ahhh.. the usual Argumentum Ad Homimem again.

f.y.i there is nothing to worry or scared about islamic banking because it is not islamic at all.. its just another easy-money making tactic making use of islam to attract customers. The term Islamic Banking is just a gimmick used by banks to pull in mostly muslims to use their service.  

If one bank can fool and attract people with their gimmick that its interest-free banking, then the other banks have to jump into the wagon to compete.. or lose out potential customers.

Originally posted by anta at 22-7-2006 11:20 PM
There are many products and services that are being offered in the Islamic finance.  
So, once again there is no such thing as INTEREST.

The only interest free banking is if you get back only what you put in.. or you pay back exactly what you borrow/loan. Any excess is interest.

for example, if you borrow RM100,000 from a interest free bank to be paid back in 20years time, then by the end of 20years you would have cleared the loan and would have only paid back Rm100,000.. but if you have to back RM250,000 by the 20th year, then no matter how you try to sweet talk your way, it remains that the excess Rm150,000 is the interest.. very simple.

Originally posted by anta at 22-7-2006 11:20 PM
"murabaha: Purchase and resale. Instead of lending out money, the capital provider purchases the desired commodity (for which the loan would have been taken out) from a third party and resells it at a predetermined higher price to the capital user. By paying this higher price over instalments, the capital user has effectively obtained credit without paying interest "

Thats the gimmick banks use to fool people. The predetermined higher price is calculated based on fixed interest. which is normally based on the current market rate. If the the market rate is 6% then the "islamic"calculation is based on that interest rate.

Originally posted by anta at 22-7-2006 11:20 PM
If you want to know about Islamic finance, first of all, you should ask yourself, why on earth many of those conventional banks nowadays are promoting Islamic finance?

Even, the articles that I have posted earlier mentioned about the involvements of many non-muslims in the Islamic finance.
Ask yourself again, why?

Simple really. Any gimmick that attract more customers, (in this case more muslims) will be adopted.Not only bank, most business do that.. add gimmick to attract customers.

The only islamic banking method looks like islamic is this Qardul Hassan (Benevolent Loan).. but islamic banks don't use it because there is no real profit from it. Something like Pas trying to do..

Qardul Hassan (Benevolent Loan)
This is a loan extended on a goodwill basis, and the debtor is only required to repay the amount borrowed. However, the debtor may, at his or her discretion, pay an extra amount beyond the principal amount of the loan (without promising it) as a token of appreciation to the creditor. In the case that the debtor does not pay an extra amount to the creditor, this transaction is a true interest-free loan. Some Muslims consider this to be the only type of loan that does not violate the prohibition on riba, since it is the one type of loan that truly does not compensate the creditor for the time value of money
source: wikipedia.com


lets see how islamic banking in action.. Resently i opened a saving account at MayBank. I was recommended by the MayBank officer who handles new accounts.. she must have been a "pios muslimah" cos' she was wearing a tudung. She suggested me to apply for Al-Wadiah saving account, the reason she gave was that Al-Wadiah pays more interest that conventional saving account.. funny isn't it.




[ Last edited by  FaithHealer3 at 23-7-2006 07:58 PM ]

RedChaSiew

hmmmmm Al-Hadiah seems like the kind of high interest savings account i ve been looking for. might drop into May Bank

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by RedChaSiew at 23-7-2006 07:09 PM
hmmmmm Al-Hadiah seems like the kind of high interest savings account i ve been looking for. might drop into May Bank

no no not Al-Hadiah but Al-Wadiah.. but Hadiah sounds nice isn't it?

actually you are not far off.. the interest earn is called " token of appreciation" hadiah la tu.





[ Last edited by  FaithHealer3 at 23-7-2006 07:46 PM ]

anta

FYI, the term Islamic Banking is no more a gimmick, it is a reality. It is an alternative to conventional bankings especially for muslims to conform to their islamic obligations.

If one bank can fool and attract people with their gimmick that its interest-free banking, then the other banks have to jump into the wagon to compete.. or lose out potential customers.

It is up to you if you want to call a bank 慺ool people/customer

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by anta at 24-7-2006 01:18 AM
FYI, the term Islamic Banking is no more a gimmick, it is a reality. It is an alternative to conventional bankings especially for muslims to conform to their islamic obligations.

The reality is the Islamic Banking still using interest but nicely repacked it as profit sharing. Its a nice gimmick and it works.
[quote]Originally posted by anta at 24-7-2006 01:18 AM
Why you have to be worried, if  muslims go for Islamic bankings? You have to ask yourself i.e. the questions that I have asked to RedChaSiew, why there are more non-muslims become customers to Islamic banks, altho

Riba = usury

Definition of usury -

The practice of lending money and charging the borrower interest, especially at an exorbitant or illegally high rate.

An excessive or illegally high rate of interest charged on borrowed money.

Definition of interest -

A charge for a loan, usually a percentage of the amount loaned.
An excess or bonus beyond what is expected or due.



Islamic banking grows more popular

By SHELLEY EMLING
Cox News Service


LONDON

RedChaSiew

u fellas are obviously not paying attention.

despite your volumes of data

islamic banking = conventional banking. otherwiise they will go bankrupt.

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by RedChaSiew at 24-7-2006 07:27 PM
u fellas are obviously not paying attention.

despite your volumes of data

islamic banking = conventional banking. otherwiise they will go bankrupt.

exactly.

no bank can survive without charging interest for thier service.

and Islamic banking too depend on INTEREST to operate.

Originally posted by FaithHealer3 at 24-7-2006 07:38 PM


exactly.

no bank can survive without charging interest for thier service.

and Islamic banking too depend on INTEREST to operate.


  

fh and rcs, you dont understand banking.. and you definitely dont understand islamic banking. interest is guaranteed whilst dividends depends on the outcome of a transaction.

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by bob at 24-7-2006 10:34 PM
fh and rcs, you dont understand banking.. and you definitely dont understand islamic banking. interest is guaranteed whilst dividends depends on the outcome of a transaction.

well bob, you don't know much about INTEREST.