Mel Gibson:The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world

barney50

eastrun,

No that is the power od the DEVIL. It tricked Mohammed and than gave him this laws:

If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire-sura 8 :50

For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are the deaf and the dumb,- those who understand not.-sura 8:22

If Allah had found in them any good. He would indeed have made them listen: (As it is), if He had made them listen, they would but have turned back and declined (Faith).-sura 8:23

So those Muslims with children who are blind, retarted and deaf are beast to Allah. Very nice of him to call them beast. But than why do Muslim parents wnat to keep them and ask for donations from public to help them? Would it not be easy to   murder them as you Allah does not care form them as he feels ythey are like beast? Think agin Muslims.

yusmar

Originally posted by barney50 at 12-8-2006 07:28 PM
eastrun,

No that is the power od the DEVIL. It tricked Mohammed and than gave him this laws:

If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smit ...

Dear barney50,

Please do not misunderstand the verse above......

Question:

What is the explanation of the verse?
{They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not} (Al-Baqarah 2:18)

??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??????

Answer:

These are three qualities that Allaah Almighty described the hypocrites with ? deaf, they do not listen to or hear the truth; dumb, they do not speak the truth; blind, they do not see what the truth is nor do they see by the truth. And because their senses are thus blocked from knowledge, they will not return from their wandering and from their hypocrisy.


Shaykh Muhammad bin Saalih al-`Uthaymeen  
Fatawa Islamiyah, vol.7, p.124, DARUSSALAM  

http://www.fatwaislam.com/fis/index.cfm?scn=fd&ID=393

I have always respected your debates and your beliefs on religious freedom.....what happen? You were one of the few non muslim forumer who is able to discuss rationally. Please do not succumb and join others who are not tolerance with others.

Thank you.

Originally posted by barney50 at 12-8-2006 07:28 PM
eastrun,

No that is the power od the DEVIL. It tricked Mohammed and than gave him this laws:

If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smit ...

check first my fren. if you shoot to fast. you may only sprout out water. check again and you might want to change your posting above.

barney50

yusmar,

Truly I was, but some of the post do not reflect the Islam that I thought so. They still say apostates should be killed and quote from the Quran of such verses. I'm sorry but to open the eyes of fanatical Muslims I need to break my code. We would like to compromise and live in harmony with Muslims who understand our faith but looks like msot of them here like MENJ, eastrun, Iman_6, Oreng and many others do not wish to do so. I have many good Muslim friends who are rational and would agree with me in this matter. When I visit Islamic website I find it to be hostile and agressive in their campaign to wipe out non Muslims. Can I stand and live by their belief?

I know you meant well and I'm sorry for my change of heart. But this is a site for debate and good will prevail.

yusmar

Originally posted by barney50 at 12-8-2006 09:11 PM
yusmar,

Truly I was, but some of the post do not reflect the Islam that I thought so. They still say apostates should be killed and quote from the Quran of such verses. I'm sorry but to open the ...

I truly understand but what matters is the fact that we are not like that....we believe in freedom of religion...and why should we become like all the others. The thing that makes us special is the fact that deep in our hearts...we believe in our faith, humanity and tolerance. That's what makes us different.

people can say whatever they want to....but words can't kill our believes for religious tolerance.ppl can preach all they want....but if they sincerely understand what all religion is about....this would not happen.

peace barney50....it's just my opinion.

Originally posted by barney50 at 12-8-2006 09:11 PM
yusmar,

Truly I was, but some of the post do not reflect the Islam that I thought so. They still say apostates should be killed and quote from the Quran of such verses. I'm sorry but to open the ...

barney, your analysis is out of context. the deaf, dumb and blind was to described those with such attributes. not those who were born handicapped. you have tak it out of context and it shows.

barney50

bob,

It can be interpreted any way to satisfy your means. Yes, that is how the hadith had been, to satify the needs of the author's mind set. So what does your heart says? Should apostates be killed? Believing in some document written some 1400 years agot would be absurd. Mankind should advance and not live in times that did not provide the neccessity and knowledge that we possess now. If we stick to the past it would only bring discomfort not ony to the community but to society on the whole. I'm not saying Muslims should dicard their believe but select what is useful and acceptable by all. It is with all the others. If Christians follow the orthodox way they too would behave like the Muslims. Remember how the Red Indians and African slaves were treated by early Americans who migrated to the new found land? This are due to the wrong interpretation of their relgious book. Also see how the non bramins were treated by the upper cast during the vedic period and carried on for centuries untl reformers like Swami Ramakrishna, Swami Vivekhananda, Buddha and others brough new life to the relgion they now called Hindusim.

There are goog and just laws in all religion where it will not prejudice any race or belief. But as it is there would always be the lot that would disagree. Like the PM said you cannopt satisfy all the people all the time. Now as far as I know the cicil law is legisted by man and cannot be called divine laws but you need to remember something. These civil laws were formulated with the help of divine laws so that it would not prejudice against any particular society. You as in individual can follow your relgious laws by not drinking, raping, stealing, sodomising, cheating, bribing, charging interest, eating non halal food and adultry as priscribed in your Quran. The whole Muslims community can do so but to implement that as law would not be practical as there are communities who indulge in gambling, drinking and partying. They are tax payers too and would want to enjoy what they think would satisfy their needs. But anything that is illegal and against the civil law would be punished by the authority. But as Muslims you and other Muslims can be steadfast and not indulge in this non hala activities. You do not need laws to be legalised to tell you you cannot do that which is against GOD. If you imman is strong why woudl you r mind focus on that which is against GOD.

May by doing so and showing how steadfast your Muslims communities is the others too might follow. But it is not that case is it? Kelantan is a good example. The syariah law is in force but Muslims do commit crimes against GOD so did the Islamic government help iradicating sins? No, it does not may be it is a issolated incident still it reflects on the relgion. So, not all  Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Buddhist or Aeithis are saints. There are bad ones and good ones and this is all due to the state of mind of the individual. In short what I would say is one can practice his religious obligation without being told and forced to follow. It is all in the mind. You cannot blame on influence, it is a lame excuse.

Originally posted by barney50 at 13-8-2006 09:27 AM
bob,

It can be interpreted any way to satisfy your means. Yes, that is how the hadith had been, to satify the needs of the author's mind set. So what does your heart says? Should apostates be ki ...

good. at least you you agree that we may interpret things out of context. you have been doing that a lot lately. do not get confused between hadith and quran.

personally, i believe apostates should not be punished if its due to them converting to another religion. period. but i do believe that what makes them convert to another religion should be dealth with strictly. more so if they are unaware of the how they are baited.

those who apostize due to the reasons such as diverting followers akidah, teaching wrong components, these are the people that need to be punished ( ayahpin, al-maunah, matahari or arqam).

as for mr gibson - he is angry with the jews for killing his god.

eastrun

Originally posted by barney50 at 12-8-2006 07:28 PM
eastrun,

No that is the power od the DEVIL. It tricked Mohammed and than gave him this laws:

If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smit ...

The statements are for the unbelievers like you.Read further...

What do you meant by deaf and dumb?. Cannot hear and Stupid?. You are wrong my friend...I know you are doing cut and paste...the deaf and dumb not because they cannot hear and stupid, but they are deaf because when they hear the laws, they reject them, and they have the brain, but they don't want to understand the laws...people like you are one of those..

Read the verses before those verses that you have posted:

"O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak)."

"Nor be like those who say, "We hear," but listen not:"

(Surah 8:20-21)
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"O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper."(Surah Al-Maidah 5:90)

You said those prohibitions are form Satan?. Can you see the last statement?. "an abomination oF Satan's handwork, eschew such(abomination), that ye may prosper"..Satan asked you to do good deeds, maybe Satan in your religion, not mine...
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For better...open the Holy Quran and read it...you will find that the Holy Book is perfect.

barney50

esatrun,

Ive read and it does not impress me. I believe in a system that believes GOD could be approached in may ways.. Oh! you mean although a person can see, hear and talk but just because he does not believe in the Quran is considered so? Funny way of putting but Allah uh!? The followers say ignorant and Allah says mute and blind. Well, you would intereprete any way you want  if it suits you but to me it is absurd and barbaric. You have been given a brain to think, question, rationalize and act. But Muslims like you do neither of it. You only listen and follow so only 0.0000000001 percent of your brain  is being used. Learn to use at least 10 percent to become a complete human being.

eastrun

Originally posted by barney50 at 14-8-2006 11:35 AM
esatrun,

Ive read and it does not impress me. I believe in a system that believes GOD could be approached in may ways.. Oh! you mean although a person can see, hear and talk but just because he  ...

Oh really...I don't think so?.Sorry in Quran got only One God to be worshipped, no stupid stories, no sex and etc, maybe that's why it doesn't impress you at all (a person who seeks stupid things rather than good things). The only to approached God(Allah), are. :

"O My servants who believe! truly, spacious is My Earth: therefore serve ye Me - (and Me alone)!" (Surah 29:56)

"O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness;" (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:21)

Whatever it is, beware ok.

"Those who reject Faith and keep off (men) from the way of Allah, have verily strayed far, far away from the Path.'"
(Surah Ani-Nisa 4:167)

HAHAHA :p

barney50

eastrun,

I hate any relgion that blows its trumpet including Islam and Christianity. Islam to me is like a washed out remamants of the past. Pick here little and pick there little add a few of your own and make a masala and call it Islam. That is what Islam is all about. The whole text relates to hate and killing. Religion is to talk about the glory of GOD and how one can please GOD by  by showering HIM with flowers and glorifying HIM with beautiful names describing HIS beauty. Not talk about the adventures of a man who thinks he is GOD's messanger and calling his henchmen to kill those who went against HIM. It is a stupid book with stupid dialog and have no meaning for man's spiritual awareness to up lift his spirituality. Hate book is the right word for the quran and hadith. Not in a thousand years, no sir, this so called book of GOD is actually tale of murderers and atocities commited by sick people calling themselves Muslims..

eastrun

Originally posted by barney50 at 15-8-2006 09:23 AM
eastrun,

I hate any relgion that blows its trumpet including Islam and Christianity. Islam to me is like a washed out remamants of the past. Pick here little and pick there little add a few of y ...

Then I can say I hate your religion because you put your God on the same level of His creations, He is elephant, He is tree, He is Sun and etc. God becomes His creations. When you say Christian is stupid because they believe in God incarnate, then look at your own religion. Christian believe that God incarnated into Jesus, where as you, believe that God incarnated to His creation.Hundreds of gods, that make you sick and stupid.

Thw whole text related with killing. I have given you many verses from the Quran that the text has nothing to do with killing and etc. But you refused and act clever that you know anything about the Holy Quran. And then, you gave me stupid proves that nothing to do with the Holy Quran.Then, should I believe you, liar?. Of course not.

Who said, Muslims doesn't worship Him with many beautiful names?. We worship Allah which has 99names called Asma ul Husna. Learn more about those names. The names show His attributes. He is One, but has 99names.

Allah doesn't need flower to be pleased, but Allah is the one who gave us those prosperties and pains. But those dolls don't have power at all, but created by the followers.

eastrun

Originally posted by barney50 at 15-8-2006 09:23 AM
eastrun,

I hate any relgion that blows its trumpet including Islam and Christianity. Islam to me is like a washed out remamants of the past. Pick here little and pick there little add a few of y ...

Then I can say I hate your religion because you put your God on the same level of His creations, He is elephant, He is tree, He is Sun and etc. God becomes His creations. When you say Christian is stupid because they believe in God incarnate, then look at your own religion. Christian believe that God incarnated into Jesus, where as you, believe that God incarnated to His creation.Hundreds of gods, that make you sick and stupid.

Thw whole text related with killing. I have given you many verses from the Quran that the text has nothing to do with killing and etc. But you refused and act clever that you know anything about the Holy Quran. And then, you gave me stupid proves that nothing to do with the Holy Quran.Then, should I believe you, liar?. Of course not.

Who said, Muslims doesn't worship Him with many beautiful names?. We worship Allah which has 99names called Asma ul Husna. Learn more about those names. The names show His attributes. He is One, but has 99names.

Allah doesn't need flower to be pleased, but Allah is the one who gave us those prosperties and pains. But those dolls don't have power at all, but created by the followers.

barney50

eastrun,

Muslims are the only ungreatful selfish human race who do not offer anything to GOD. The Christians at least light the candle and offer flowers at the altar of Jesus but the Muslims offer nothing but in return ask for protection and prosperity for the ummah. Pathetic. It is their selfish nature because they are followers of an illetrate who knew nothing about GOD but just copy from the Jews and Christians and add some of his own thoughts and proclained himself a prophet. His relatives believed it but the Meccans knrew he was a liar. Fear for his life he ran off to Medina [which the muslims proudly call hijra] in fear of being killed. Manage to collect some cut throats and a promise in the share of the loot he marched inot Medina and declared war. The rest is history and you or any others cannot convience me that he was the prophet of GOD. The Jews sao no and the Christians say no but he kept telling the Arabs Allah is the GID of the Jews as well as the Christans too. The Jews and Christians knew he was a con man claimg to be a prophet as so they refused to accept his suggestion to merge their relgion inot his. Knowing that he could not convience them he waged war aginst them. See how the story goes, surprised uh!?.... I do not mind if you wsh me to go further as I have many boks about your beloved prophet. So, don't start with me or you'll regret for the rest of your life.

eastrun

Originally posted by barney50 at 15-8-2006 11:04 PM
eastrun,

Muslims are the only ungreatful selfish human race who do not offer anything to GOD. The Christians at least light the candle and offer flowers at the altar of Jesus but the Muslims off ...

Stupid..we Muslims have same ways worshipping Allah:

1) The Creed (Shahada): Every Muslim must be able to proclaim this simple creed with absolute conviction of its truth. 揟here is no god but Allah and Muhammed is his messenger.

barney50

By eastrun:

1. Before you make accusitions upon Muhammad, don't you know WHO CREATED THE KAABAH by Allah permission?.
   
2. 
   
3. His name is Abraham (Ibrahim in Arabic), he is the great grandfather of Muhammad as well as one of the prophets. And he was chosen by Allah before Jesus (Christian)  Moses (Judaism), even though originally, Jesus and Moses also taught Islam.

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Yeh! Abrahim who had an affair with is slave and cast her into the desert with the illegitimate child Ishmael. So Mohammed was the decendant of Ishmael the child born out of wedlock.

1. Allah instructed him(Abraham) to build the Kaabah as place for the followers to worship Him. Meaning that Abraham teaching is same with Muhammad (his great grandson). Meaning that Islam has existed before the existence of Christian and Judaism. Abraham is the chosen one to brought Islam by Allah permission. And Allah had chosen Muhammad as the final messenger after Jesus and Moses to confirm that Islam is the religion of all time.

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No, it is not. Mohammed claimed so because of Ishmael and was hoping that the Jews would accept him as one of the porphets of GOD [Jehova]. When he failed in his attempt he branded the jews as his enemies and to date the Muslims are fighting the Jews. What a let down and shame for the Muslims.

1. "So We have taught thee(Muhammad) the inspired (Message), "Follow the ways of Abraham the True in Faith, and he joined not gods with Allah."" (Surah An-Nahl 16:123)

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But are Muslims folowing the ways of Abraham? No, Mohammed did not created something else beside the OT and no Muslims are following Mohammed and not Abraham. Do not confuse non Muslims with your stupid idea that Allah is same as GOD of the Jews.

1. So what Muslims have done today, actually has been done by Abraham and his followers, but when Jesus and Moses came, thier followers changed the laws and etc. Then Muhammad was sent to restore the religion.The religion that ask the followers to worship God, The One And Only, Allah.

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So, in your litte brain you think the Jews are praying to many GODs and not one GOD? Are you stupid or what? Go read their Torah before you talk nonsense.
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1. So, say "I believe there is only ONE God,Allah. And Muhammad is the final messenger"
   
2. 
   
3. You better hurry, or you won't have chance at all.

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So, say "I believe there is one GOD in many names and forms and there is no final prophet as there would be others coming to give a morew clear message so that people of the 21st century would find it easy to approach GOD"

So, stop you blabbring and believe that path to GOD is many and whatever path you chose GOD would understand and accept your prayers. HE did not create you to be a lifless robot but a living being who shoud be able to think rationaly and have feelings and love for all HIS creations. Not a stupid brainless being.

eastrun

Originally posted by barney50 at 16-8-2006 07:32 PM
By eastrun:

Before you make accusitions upon Muhammad, don't you know WHO CREATED THE KAABAH by Allah permission?.

His name is Abraham (Ibrahim in Arabic), he is the great grandfather of Muh ...

Yeh! Abrahim who had an affair with is slave and cast her into the desert with the illegitimate child Ishmael. So Mohammed was the decendant of Ishmael the child born out of wedlock.
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My answer:

Hahaha...see, once again you when to the wrong source of information. You went to Christian website,right?. I have read the story. You see, the People of the Book(Christian) tried thier best to say that Muhammad is the fruit of incest. Because, when you read Bible, GENESIS Chapter 38:1-30.It is about an old man (Yehuda)or Judas  had sex with his daughter -in law (Tamar) and produced two sons of incest named Peres and Zerah . And these two sons of incest is put into the geneology of Jesus Christ. Read Matthew 1:1

"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.  Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;  And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar;"
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So it is normal to hear that they accused Muhammad is the sons of incest.But in Islamic perspective, Jesus is a holy prophet.

And you followed them blindly without seeing first in the perspective of Islam. Read book called Al-Fiqh Al-Butti to clarify yourself.Abraham got two WIVES, called Sarah and Hajar. Hajar actually was a slave of Sarah. Because Sarah cannot beget a son for Abraham, so she OFFERED her husband to marry Hajar(polygamy). Hajar begot ISHMAEL and years later with Allah miracles, Sarah is able to beget a son called ISAAC.Both are chosen as Prophets.
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With Allah instruction, Abraham took his second wife, HAJAR and his son, ISHMAEL to the desert and from there, the Kaabah was established.It is stated in the Quran:

"Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe.""

"And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam.""

"Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah. To Him we bow (in Islam).""
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:131 - 135)
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I know the Jews and Christian worship one God,same God with Islam. The One God. But the way they worship the Lord, is out of His prophets instruction.

Jesus said in the Bible:
"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Moses commanded the same thing. But the way they worship Allah is different. The Christians believe that Jesus is God, and one of the Trinity..No religion practising strict MONOTHEISM like Islam. And that is the way how God instructed us to worship Him. Not with thousands of gods, no trees, no cows, not His creations.
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So, stop you blabbring and believe that path to GOD is many and whatever path you chose GOD would understand and accept your prayers. HE did not create you to be a lifless robot but a living being who shoud be able to think rationaly and have feelings and love for all HIS creations. Not a stupid brainless being.HE did not create you to be a lifless robot but a living being who shoud be able to think rationaly and have feelings and love for all HIS creations. Not a stupid brainless being.
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My answer:
Ooo..I see. You worship those cows, tree, elephant, just because you loves HIS CREATIONS, not because you love him?.Haha...who is stupid now. You create your gods, and then you worship your creations. The stone cannot speak and hear. And ONLY A FOOL will speak with those gods created by STONE. Brainless worshipper.

barney50

eastrun:

1. Hahaha...see, once again you when to the wrong source of information. You went to Christian website,right?. I have read the story. You see, the People of the Book(Christian) tried thier best to say that Muhammad is the fruit of incest. Because, when you read Bible, GENESIS Chapter 38:1-30.It is about an old man (Yehuda)or Judas  had sex with his daughter -in law (Tamar) and produced two sons of incest named Peres and Zerah . And these two sons of incest is put into the geneology of Jesus Christ. Read Matthew 1:1
   
2. 
   
3. "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.  Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;  And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar;"
   
4. 
   
5. So it is normal to hear that they accused Muhammad is the sons of incest.But in Islamic perspective, Jesus is a holy prophet.
   
6. 
   
7. And you followed them blindly without seeing first in the perspective of Islam. Read book called Al-Fiqh Al-Butti to clarify yourself.Abraham got two WIVES, called Sarah and Hajar. Hajar actually was a slave of Sarah. Because Sarah cannot beget a son for Abraham, so she OFFERED her husband to marry Hajar(polygamy). Hajar begot ISHMAEL and years later with Allah miracles, Sarah is able to beget a son called ISAAC.Both are chosen as Prophets.

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My reply:

Why should I believe you or the doctrated so called doctorine of imposters? Al-Fiqh Al-Butti may not be the real truth, did you think about it ? No, you woud not because you have been warned not to or else you'd burn in hell fire. That is the threst Muslim clergies warn the students. I believe what the Bible says because it came out first before Mohammed doctrated his own.
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eastrun:

1. With Allah instruction, Abraham took his second wife, HAJAR and his son, ISHMAEL to the desert and from there, the Kaabah was established.It is stated in the Quran:
   
2. 
   
3. "Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe.""
   
4. 
   
5. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam.""
   
6. 
   
7. "Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah. To Him we bow (in Islam).""
   
8. (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:131 - 135)

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My reply:

That is the version of Mohammed who edited what he wants the Muslims to believe. It does not give any solid proof of the event except the claim it was from Allah the Muslim GOD.
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eastrun:

1. I know the Jews and Christian worship one God,same God with Islam. The One God. But the way they worship the Lord, is out of His prophets instruction.
   
2. 
   
3. Jesus said in the Bible:
   
4. "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
   
5. 
   
6. Moses commanded the same thing. But the way they worship Allah is different. The Christians believe that Jesus is God, and one of the Trinity..No religion practising strict MONOTHEISM like Islam. And that is the way how God instructed us to worship Him. Not with thousands of gods, no trees, no cows, not His creations.

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My reply:

Yes, that part is true. The Jews and Christians worship one GOD but not the part where you claim Muslims too. Because the Jews and Christians do not believe Allah is their GOD because Mohammed hijacked theyr relgion and calimed it as one. Get that bozo? You religion is nothing but a xerox of the Jews and nothing can change that.
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eastrun:

Ooo..I see. You worship those cows, tree, elephant, just because you loves HIS CREATIONS, not because you love him?.Haha...who is stupid now. You create your gods, and then you worship your creations. The stone cannot speak and hear. And ONLY A FOOL will speak with those gods created by STONE. Brainless worshipper. [/code]
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My reply:

Only fools like will believe Hindus worship cows, elephants and trees. We do not create GODs but was created by HIM and HIM alone. We know GOD is the energy that we breath and HE is the energy that we live and we have learned to tap that energy to gain HIS grace which the Muslims do not know nor will they be able to do. Ignorant , illetrate people of the do desert do not and will not understand such a high spiritual advancement as they are know as mundane. Allthey know is the stars and moon in the night sky of the desert and that is why the took that as a symbol of Islam. Mohammed new nothing and Muslims will no nothing. Blank is their brain as so will they be forever.

"BY WAY OF DECEPTION THOU SHALT DO WAR"
- MOSSAD LOGO in Hebrew