Should Malays have freedom of religion?

nightlord

As we all know, Article 11 of the Constiitution gives every  citizen the right to practise their choice of religious faith.

Article 11 does not affect the non-muslims.................only the Malays are affected by it.

So should the Malays be given their constitutional rights as a race(nothing to do with religion) of people unique only to Malaysia. Forget for now the traditions of Arabia as so many Malays have adopted.

Should they?

BeanDiesel

Originally posted by nightlord at 8/10/06 09:03 AM
As we all know, Article 11 of the Constiitution gives every  citizen the right to practise their choice of religious faith.

Article 11 does not affect the non-muslims.................only the Ma ...

can u share with us the exact lines from Article 11. thanks.

Baiduri Othman

Originally posted by nightlord at 11-8-2006 01:03 AM
As we all know, Article 11 of the Constiitution gives every  citizen the right to practise their choice of religious faith.

Article 11 does not affect the non-muslims.................only the Ma ...

Not to mention the traditions of the Arabs but the Westerners too! You shd comment on that too!

Oreng

Bible say if you dont believe in jesus christ, you go to hell. Can we change that too ?

Baiduri Othman

Is it so wrong to defend Article 11? Is it a big sin to fight & defend our rights as Muslims as we don't interfere or meddle with other people's faiths?

nightlord

I have included article 1 to 11 below.

Constitution of Malaysia
PART I - THE STATES, RELIGION AND LAW OF THE FEDERATION
Article number: 1

1.

    * (1) The Federation shall be known, in Malay and in English, by the name Malaysia.

    * (2) The States of the Federation shall be Johore, Kedah, Kelantan, Malacca, Negeri Sembilan, Pahang, Penang, Perak, Perlis, Sabah, Sarawak, Selangor and Trengganu.

      (3) Subject to Clause (4), the territories of each of the States mentioned in Clause (2) are the territories comprised therein immediately before Malaysia Day.

    * (4) The territory of the State of Selangor shall exclude the Federal Territory of Kuala Lumpur established under the Constitution (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1973 and the territory of the State of Sabah shall exclude the Federal Territory of Labuan established under the Constitution (Amendment) (no. 2) Act 1984, and both the said Federal Territories shall be territories of the Federation.

Article number: 2

2. Parliament may by law -

    * (a) admit other States to the Federation;

    * (b) alter the boundaries of any State, but a law altering the boundaries of a State shall not be passed without the consent of that State (expressed by a law made by the Legislature of that State) and of the Conference of Rulers.

Article number: 3

3.

    * (1) Islam is the religion of the Federation; but other religions may be practised in peace and harmony in any part of the Federation.

    * (2) In every State other than States not having a Ruler the position of the Ruler as the Head of the religion of Islam in his State in the manner and to the extent acknowledged and declared by the Constitution, all rights, privileges, prerogatives and powers enjoyed by him as Head of that religion, are unaffected and unimpaired; but in any acts, observance or ceremonies with respect to which the Conference of Rulers has agreed that they should extend to the Federation as a whole each of the other Rulers shall in his capacity of Head of the religion of Islam authorize the Yang di-pertuan Agong to represent him.

    * (3). The Constitution of the States of Malacca, Penang, Sabah and Sarawak shall each make provision for conferring on the Yang di-Pertuan Agong shall be Head of the religion of Islam in that State.

    * (4) Nothing in this Article derogates from any other provision of this Constitution.

    * (5) Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution the Yang di-Pertuan Agong shall be the Head of the religion of Islam in the Federal Territories of Kuala Lumpur and Labuan; and for this purpose Parliament may by law make provisions for regulating Islamic religious affairs and for constituting a Council to advise the Yang di-Pertuan Agong in matters relating to the religion of Islam.

Article number: 4

4.

    * (1) This Constitution is the supreme law of the Federation and any law passed after Merdeka Day which is inconsistent with this Constitution shall, to the extent of the inconsistency, be void.

    * (2) The validity of any law shall not be questioned on the ground that -

          o (a) it imposes restrictions on the right mentioned in Article 9 (2) but does not relate to the matters mentioned therein; or

          o (b) it imposes such restrictions as are mentioned in Article 10 (2) but those restrictions were not deemed necessary or expedient by Parliament for the purposes mentioned in that Article.

    * (3) The validity of any law made by Parliament or the Legislature of any State shall not be questioned on the ground that it makes provision with respect to any matter with respect to which Parliament or, as the case may be, the Legislature of the State has no power to make laws, except in proceedings for a declaration that the law is invalid on that ground or -

          o (a) if the law was made by Parliament, in proceedings between the Federation and one or more States;

          o (b) if the law was made by Legislature of a State, in proceedings between the Federation and that State.

    * (4) Proceedings for a declaration that a law is invalid on the ground mentioned in Clause (3) (not being proceedings falling within paragraph (a) or (b) of the Clause) shall not be commenced without the leave of a judge of the Supreme Court; and the Federation shall be entitled to be a party to any such proceedings, and so shall any State that would or might be a party to proceedings brought for the same purpose under paragraph (a) or (b) of the Clause.



Go back to the contents page of the Malaysian Constitution
PART II - FUNDAMENTAL LIBERTIES
Article number: 5

5.

    * (1) No person shall be deprived of his life or personal liberty save in accordance with law.

    * (2) Where complaint is made to a High court or any judge thereof that a person is being unlawfully detained the court shall inquire into the complaint and, unless satisfied that the detention is lawful, shall order him to be produced before the court and release him.

    * (3) Where a person is arrested he shall be informed as soon as may be of the grounds of his arrest and shall be allowed to consult and be defended by a legal practitioner of his choice.

    * (4) Where a person is arrested and not released he shall without unreasonable delay, and in any case within twenty-four hours (excluding the time of any necessary journey) be produced before a magistrate and shall not be further detained in custody without the magistrate's authority:

      Provided that this Clause shall not apply to the arrest or detention of any person under the existing law relating to restricted residence, and all the provisions of this Clause shall be deemed to have been an integral part of this Article as from Merdeka Day.

    * (5) Clauses (3) and (4) do not apply to an enemy alien.

Article number: 6

6.

    * (1) No person shall be held in slavery.

    * (2) All forms of forced labour are prohibited, but Parliament may by law provide for compulsory service for national purposes.

    * (3) Work incidental to the serving of a sentence of imprisonment imposed by a court of law shall not be taken to be forced labour within the meaning of this Article.

    * (4) Where by any written law the whole or any part of the functions of any public authority is to be carried on by another public authority, for the purpose of enabling those functions to be performed the employees of the first mentioned public authority shall be bound to serve the second mentioned public authority shall not be taken to be forced labour within the meaning of this Article, and no such employee shall be entitled to demand any right from either the first mentioned or the second mentioned public authority by reason of the transfer of his employment.

Article number: 7

7.

      (1) No person shall be punished for an act or omission which was not punishable by law when it was done or made, and no person shall suffer greater punishment for an offence than was prescribed by law at the time it was committed.

    * (2) A person who has been acquitted or convicted of an offence shall not be tried again for the same offence except where the conviction or acquittal has been quashed and a retrial ordered by a court superior to that by which he was acquitted or convicted.

Article number: 8

8.

    * (1) All persons are equal before the law and entitled to the equal protection of the law.

    * (2) Except as expressly authorized by this Constitution, there shall be no discrimination against citizens on the ground only of religion, race, descent or place of birth in any law relating to the acquisition, holding or disposition of property or the establishing or carrying on of any trade, business, profession, vocation or employment.

    * (3) There shall be no discrimination in favour of any person on the ground that he is a subject of the Ruler of the State.

    * (4) No public authority shall discriminate against any person on the ground that he is resident or carrying on business in any part of the Federation outside the jurisdiction of the authority.

    * (5) This Article does not invalidate or prohibit -

          o (a) any provision regulating personal law;

          o (b) any provision or practice restricting office or employment connected with the affairs of any religion, or of an institution managed by a group professing any religion, to persons professing that religion;

          o (c) any provision for the protection, wellbeing or advancement of the aboriginal peoples of the Malay Peninsula (including the reservation of land) or the reservation to aborigines of a reasonable proportion of suitable positions in the public service;

          o (d) any provision prescribing residence in a State or part of a State as a qualification for election or appointment to any authority having jurisdiction only in that State or part, or for voting in such an election;

          o (e) any provision of a Constitution of a State, being or corresponding to a provision in force immediately before Merdeka Day;

          o (f) any provision restricting enlistment in the Malay Regiment to Malays.

Article number: 9

9.

    * (1) No citizen shall be banished or excluded from the Federation.

    * (2) Subject to Clause (3) and to any law relating to the security of the Federation or any part thereof, public order, public health, or the punishment of offenders, every citizen has the right to move freely throughout the Federation and to reside in any part thereof.

    * (3) So long as under this Constitution any other State is in a special position as compared with the States of Malaya, Parliament may by law impose restrictions, as between that State and other States, on the rights conferred by Clause (2) in respect of movement and residence.

[ Last edited by  nightlord at 11-8-2006 09:38 AM ]

nightlord

Article number: 10

10.

      (1) Subject to Clauses (2), (3) and (4) -

          o (a) every citizen has the right to freedom of speech and expression;

          o (b) all citizens have the right to assemble peaceably and without arms;

          o (c) all citizens have the right to form associations.

    * (2) Parliament may by law impose -

          o (a) on the rights conferred by paragraph (a) of Clause (1),such restrictions as it deems necessary or expedient in the interest of the security of the Federation or any part thereof, friendly relations with other countries, public order or morality and restrictions designed to protect the privileges of Parliament or of any Legislative Assembly or to provide against contempt of court, defamation, or incitement to any offence;

          o (b) on the right conferred by paragraph (b) of Clause (1), such restrictions as it deems necessary or expedient in the interest of the security of the Federation or any part thereof, or public order;

          o (c) on the right conferred by paragraph (c) of Clause (1), such restrictions as it deems necessary or expedient in the interest of the security of the Federation or any part thereof, public order or morality.

    * (3) Restrictions on the right to form associations conferred by paragraph (c) of Clause (1) may also be imposed by any law relating to labour or education.

    * (4) In imposing restrictions in the interest of the security of the Federation or any part thereof or public order under Clause (2) (a), Parliament may pass law prohibiting the questioning of any matter, right, status, position, privilege, sovereignty or prerogative established or protected by the provisions of Part III, article 152, 153 or 181 otherwise than in relation to the implementation thereof as may be specified in such law.

Article number: 11

11.

      (1) Every person has the right to profess and practice his religion and, subject to Clause (4), to propagate it.

      (2) No person shall be compelled to pay any tax the proceeds of which are specially allocated in whole or in part for the purposes of a religion other than his own.

    * (3) Every religious group has the right -

          o (a) to manage its own religious affairs;

          o (b) to establish and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes; and

          o (c) to acquire and own property and hold and administer it in accordance with law.

    * (4) State law and in respect of the Federal Territories of Kuala Lumpur and Lubuan, federal law may control or restrict the propagation of any religious doctrine or belief among persons professing the religion of Islam.

    * (5) This Article does not authorize any act contrary to any general law relating to public order, public health or morality.

THE REST YOU CAN READ IT HERE,

http://www.trybunal.gov.pl/const ... laysia/malays-e.htm

nightlord

ORENG and BAIDURI, you first have to understand what article 11 is about.

First forget all that your ustaz or whomever religious have told you about article 11.

Article 11 is not about apostasy.

Article 11 is about your RIGHTS AS A CITIZEN OF MALAYSIA.

ARTICLE 11 OF OUR  CONSTITUTION GIVES ALL MALAYS A RIGHT TO PRACTICE THE RELIGION OF THEIR CHOICE.

IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU ARE A MUSLIM( of course you are) you are free to practice it.

IN OTHER WORDS, A MALAY IN MALAYSIA HAS A CHOICE.. And the Malaysian Constitution gives you that choice.

And if your religious leaders say that Article 11 weakens Islam in Malaysia, they have to realise,

1) the Constitution is already drafted AND IT IS NOT AGAINST ISLAM,
2) ARE MUSLIMS SO WEAK IN THEIR FAITH THAT GIVING A MALAY THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE MEANS THEY WILL CHOOSE ANOTHER RELIGION OTHER THAN ISLAM.

Think about it.

[ Last edited by  nightlord at 11-8-2006 09:52 AM ]

Oreng

Originally posted by nightlord at 11-8-2006 09:50 AM
ARTICLE 11 OF OUR  CONSTITUTION GIVES ALL MALAYS A RIGHT TO PRACTICE THE RELIGION OF THEIR CHOICE.

IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU ARE A MUSLIM( of course you are) you are free to practice it.

IN OTHER WORDS, A MALAY IN MALAYSIA HAS A CHOICE.. And the Malaysian Constitution gives you that choice.

nightlord,

You are misguided here and a little bit overlimit. Read carefully the wording in the article 11, read as it is , not as you want it.

Article 11(1) say : (1) Every person has the right to profess and practice his religion

You say : ALL MALAYS A RIGHT TO PRACTICE THE RELIGION OF THEIR CHOICE.

If you still dont see the difference, just let me know.

Baiduri Othman

What do you mean forget abt what our ustaz say? For your kind info, in our everyday life - we don't refer to ustaz whatsoever. We don't go to the mosques & ask forgiveness like what you guys always do. We can always do that anywhere. This is common sense lah.

[ Last edited by  Baiduri Othman at 11-8-2006 12:56 PM ]

RedChaSiew

...>>>

          o (b) all citizens have the right to assemble peaceably and without arms;

<<<<<<<<<<<<



don't think they practice that..but with water cannons and rubber bullets

nightlord

Well ORENG i rather you tell us what it means as i think my grasp of english is superior to yours and your understanding of that article may be about its implications rather than what it actually says.

In other words you are worried about what is going to happen rather than what your right is as a citizen of Malaysia.

Baiduri Othman

I don't like people associating the Ustaz, ulamas whenever the Muslims defend & fight their rights in the Constitution. In our everyday life, we seldom communicate with these group of people unless we're working the Islamic affairs dept. To me - defending & fighting our rights as Muslims & or even as Malays or Bumis is a right that you guys shd respect. You know why? The Malay Muslims have sacrificed a lot to share this country with you guys & giving you the citizenship. We don't meddle with your affairs, what to say your religions & culture. We don't impose Islamic laws on you guys. We don't force the non-Muslims to embrace Islam whenever they want to marry their Muslim partners. They're given the right to say yes or no. Pls take note of that.

PS. There's no bloodshed in the process of defending & fighting our rights. It's the Muslims' affairs & got nothing to do with the non-Muslims.

[ Last edited by  Baiduri Othman at 11-8-2006 08:30 PM ]

Baiduri Othman

Sorry ff: I hope Barney50 won't be mentioning anything like the Chinese & Indians built Msia esp the economy. Don't forget without the oil royalty from Sabah & Swak, you guys would be "berdayung sampan" balik China & India. Take note of that too. Thanks to the Sabahans & Swakians who too sacrifice to share their natural resources with you all.

Oreng

Originally posted by nightlord at 11-8-2006 08:18 PM
Well ORENG i rather you tell us what it means as i think my grasp of english is superior to yours and your understanding of that article may be about its implications rather than what it actually says.

In other words you are worried about what is going to happen rather than what your right is as a citizen of Malaysia.  

OK, the Article 11(1) does not mention about CHOICE. Meaning, the religion for malays is already chosen, malays just need to practice it !

You as non-malays please dont interfere with our affairs, ok ?

Originally posted by nightlord at 11-8-2006 09:36 AM

Article number: 11

11.

      (1) Every person has the right to profess and practice his religion and, subject to Clause (4), to propagate it.

      (2) No person shall be compelled to pay any tax the proceeds of which are specially allocated in whole or in part for the purposes of a religion other than his own.

    * (3) Every religious group has the right -

          o (a) to manage its own religious affairs;

          o (b) to establish and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes; and

          o (c) to acquire and own property and hold and administer it in accordance with law.

    * (4) State law and in respect of the Federal Territories of Kuala Lumpur and Lubuan, federal law may control or restrict the propagation of any religious doctrine or belief among persons professing the religion of Islam.

    * (5) This Article does not authorize any act contrary to any general law relating to public order, public health or morality.

Nightlord, you are right in saying that the articles calls for practicing freedom. And so malays would like to freely practice islam. Can you respect that? Or do you see that, for malays to practice islam is contravening article 11 but for others to do it, no issue. have it not crossed in your mind that maybe, just maybe that the islam religion practive by that individual malay is the religion of his choice?

or do malays need to convert to other religions in order to prove that they are adhering to article 11? you cant answer this cant you?

barney50

1. responded by Baiduri Othman:Sorry I hope Barney50 won't be mentioning anything like the Chinese & Indians built Msia esp the economy. Don't forget without the oil royalty from Sabah & Swak, you guys would be "berdayung sampan" balik China & India. Take note of that too. Thanks to the Sabahans & Swakians who too sacrifice to share their natural resources with you all.

Copy the Code

Since you mentioned my name, I think it is my right to defend what you have said. Since when was the royalty shared by mainland? Sabah and Sawarak joined Malaysia in 1963 and before that who was in mainland and who built the main infrastruture in theis country? Malays and the idigenous people of Sabah and Sawarak? You must be joking. I have nothing futher to talk on this issue as you lack in historical facts. Rememeber that when Malaya achieve MERDAKA TAR needed money to finance project and it was the  Chertias who loaned money to the government. Go look into the chetiars involment in the UM library or the government archives.

Baiduri Othman

Well, I don't know abt that. But then even Sabah & Swak joined the Federation only in 1963, still you shd thank both states. Remember Tanah Melayu might be running out of natural resources during those yrs. So thanks to the people of Sabah & Swak. Ahaksssssss....... What if one day both states are able to get 100% of their oil royalty & they no longer contribute to the Federal Govt?

PS. Bosan dgn jenis manusia yg asyik perasan yg bangsa mrk je yg membangunkan Msia.

[ Last edited by  Baiduri Othman at 13-8-2006 01:28 PM ]

Originally posted by Baiduri Othman at 13-8-2006 01:26 PM
Well, I don't know abt that. But then even Sabah & Swak joined the Federation only in 1963, still you shd thank both states. Remember Tanah Melayu might be running out of natural resources duri ...

thanks sabahan and sarawakians..

Sabahan dan sarawakian sekadar berkorban hasil minyak (hasil bumi milik Tuhan) tapi chinese dan indian dari keringat mereka, hasil pengorbanan (penghambaan mereka pada duit).