What God said in Bible about Himself...

Peace,

The Qur'an says:
4.171 O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa[10] son of Marium[3] is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium[3] and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

The Bible says:
Isaiah 43:10, "You are My witnesses, declares the Lord, And My servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me."

It is clear that Jesus is a spirit from God. But it does not mean that Jesus had been given an authority to behave like God, nor was he a part of God. He is just one of messengers. We are also spirit from God.

Barney50's claim is definitely pantheistic, seeing all creature as God. To say that we have some deity quality does not mean that we are God. We cannot play game in words, since words contain specific meaning. According to the Qur'an, all spirits come from God's, and to Him they shall return. So, it is true that we have God's quality and God urge us to behave like Him. But, after all, we all are His creatures, we are human, not God.

Philosophically speaking, it is illogical to gather God and human in one form. The essence of God is formless, spaceless, timeless. And the essence of human is form, in time and space, and matter. How could both be in one being? Even Thomas Aquinas, a Christian philosopher who defend Trinity concept, cannot answer this.

Furthermore, human is made of two essence, cognitive/mental aspect/intellect (spirit from God) and body of matter. It is only from this cognitive aspect can human communicate himself with God, that is through prayer.

We may conclude that theologically, based on the Bible and the Qur'an, God is one  and nothing associate with Him. If one gets the Trinity by understanding general conclusion of reading the Bible as a whole, there are many Christian scholars who did it and got themselves reject the Trinity, and I myself have read the whole without finding Trinity.
Philosophically, the Trinity is illogical based on the contradiction between God's essence and human essence. If one doubt my logic, I got A grade both in Formal Logic and Modern Logic.


Peace,

Tove

Debmey

The Qur'an says:
4.171 O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa[10] son of Marium[3] is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium[3] and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

Here's the mystery of the verse above. The Quran does not explain the concept of the 'messiah'.

The Bible says:
Isaiah 43:10, "You are My witnesses, declares the Lord, And My servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me."

Thats right bruder, there is no other God but the Trinity. But you muslims invented a new god and worship it and try to use it to oppress others.


.

It is clear that Jesus is a spirit from God. But it does not mean that Jesus had been given an authority to behave like God, nor was he a part of God. He is just one of messengers. We are also spirit from God.

The Bible clearly says that Jesus is God. Read John 1 and 8.

Barney50's claim is definitely pantheistic, seeing all creature as God. To say that we have some deity quality does not mean that we are God. We cannot play game in words, since words contain specific meaning. According to the Qur'an, all spirits come from God's, and to Him they shall return. So, it is true that we have God's quality and God urge us to behave like Him. But, after all, we all are His creatures, we are human, not God.

So why do muslims need to practice deceit, teachery, torture and terrorism if we are indeed suppose to behave like Him? Are you saying that Allah have to resort to all these as well? Can you really picture God doing what Muhamad taught Muslism to do?

Philosophically speaking, it is illogical to gather God and human in one form. The essence of God is formless, spaceless, timeless. And the essence of human is form, in time and space, and matter. How could both be in one being? Even Thomas Aquinas, a Christian philosopher who defend Trinity concept, cannot answer this.

The essence of God is not formless or timeless. If the essence of God is really what you said, then something that never existed would fit into your definition, this would be ridiculous isn't it?
The essence of God is love and almightiness. Thats why he is able and not restricted by your baseless thoughts of what He ought or not nought to do.  

Furthermore, human is made of two essence, cognitive/mental aspect/intellect (spirit from God) and body of matter. It is only from this cognitive aspect can human communicate himself with God, that is through prayer.

doesn't God have cognitive and intellectual abilities too if he wants to communicate with us?

We may conclude that theologically, based on the Bible and the Qur'an, God is one  and nothing associate with Him. If one gets the Trinity by understanding general conclusion of reading the Bible as a whole, there are many Christian scholars who did it and got themselves reject the Trinity, and I myself have read the whole without finding Trinity.

I doubt you did cos the Trinity concept is plastered all over the Bible as we have shown. You cannot simply take certain verses selctively whiel ignoring others can you? All trhe verses must harmonise and the harmony points clearly to teh Trinity.

Philosophically, the Trinity is illogical based on the contradiction between God's essence and human essence. If one doubt my logic, I got A grade both in Formal Logic and Modern Logic.

Er.. you have yet to show anyone why god cannot be Trinity philosophically. BTW, is god restricted by philosophy which is human thought? Think again my fren.

Peace,

I would like answer this complicated issue as clear as possible.

1. Messiah.
I think the Bible (not its hermeneutics) also does not explain this term.
Before the Christian, the Jew have used this term. In Hebrew, 慚essiah

Debmey

[quote]1. Messiah.I think the Bible (not its hermeneutics) also does not explain this term.Before the Christian, the Jew have used this term. In Hebrew, 慚essiah

2. So why do muslims need to practice deceit, teachery, torture and terrorism.....?
I will not answer this as it has been well known that extremism exists every where regardless of religions and politics.

3. The essence of God is not formless or timeless. If the essence of God is really what you said, then something that never existed would fit into your definition, this would be ridiculous isn't it?

Of course I'm talking of God's essence related to the topic. The essence of God is love and almightiness, that is true, but not relevant to the issue.
I say, God is formless meaning that He is not bound to our space. That He is timeless means that He is eternal. He has no beginning and no end. Everything made of matter will be subject to change and corruption. The universe is expanding! And this is the principle of philosophy, and of the philosophy of science too.

Now it is difficult (if not impossible) to explain the Trinity from this viewpoint. How could divine being degrades himself into matter? If it is possible, there would be no necessity for God to appoint His messengers. Logically, if there are necessary essences of God, there are impossible (not 'unnecessary') essences of Him. So, if we say could God create a very heavy stone which He cannot carry? The answer is no answer, because the question is wrong and commits fallacy. The question contradicts the essence of God. So is the Trinity. It has no sound answer since it contradicts the principle; the principle of time and space.

That is why Muslim must believe in all messengers, all holy books, from the first time  Adam descended until the last one; that all human races have received at least one of messenger. No body left behind, no body!; That all religions convey the same thing: Believe in One God and do good deeds.

What I have explained, I think, covers all your questions (except unnecessary ones). Now I will arrive to your 'heavy' question, that something that never existed would fit into the definition. I would say frankly YES. Logic, which is the rule of how mind works, only guides human to know God in rationalistic way. It does not make you at all to believe. But you may believe in something totally wrong without  its guidance. Ultimately, it is up to human himself either to believe or disbelieve. But one thing all atheist neglect, that the signs of God's existence are everywhere, in every moment and point, so much so that they cannot see and feel.


Peace,


Tove

Peace,

Daniel 7: 13
揑 saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Debmey

2. So why do muslims need to practice deceit, teachery, torture and terrorism.....?
I will not answer this as it has been well known that extremism exists every where regardless of religions and politics.

Those people are the true followers of Quran and hadiths. Have you studied islam carefully? don't tell me you are so ignorant. Who are you trying to fool here?

3. The essence of God is not formless or timeless. If the essence of God is really what you said, then something that never existed would fit into your definition, this would be ridiculous isn't it?

Of course I'm talking of God's essence related to the topic. The essence of God is love and almightiness, that is true, but not relevant to the issue.
I say, God is formless meaning that He is not bound to our space. That He is timeless means that He is eternal. He has no beginning and no end. Everything made of matter will be subject to change and corruption. The universe is expanding! And this is the principle of philosophy, and of the philosophy of science too.

It is relevant to the issue cos you are violating God's almightiness by restricting his ability and equivating his essence to someting that can suit something that don't exist.
Why don't you have God's essence as something that only he can fulfill, ie almightiness?

Now it is difficult (if not impossible) to explain the Trinity from this viewpoint. How could divine being degrades himself into matter? If it is possible, there would be no necessity for God to appoint His messengers. Logically, if there are necessary essences of God, there are impossible (not 'unnecessary') essences of Him. So, if we say could God create a very heavy stone which He cannot carry? The answer is no answer, because the question is wrong and commits fallacy. The question contradicts the essence of God. So is the Trinity. It has no sound answer since it contradicts the principle; the principle of time and space.

Now you are straying away from your own line of thought. First you were talking about the possibility of God being in human form, now you suddenly extend it to the concept of the Trinity. There is nothing degrading in being matter cos matter was craeted by God. Again you violate the concept of God's almightiness. In other words, you made the fallacy of restrictiung God to what he can do. You are indeed saying that God who created a rock but can't carry it cos he cannot move in the realm of matter. You are beginning to lose it me fren and tying yourself up in logical knots. This comes about ebcause you have a wrong understanding of God. Once you have the wrong perspective, you end up defending it and get yourself trapped in reason. You need to open up and chnage your paradigm, only then will you have a correct understanding of God.

That is why Muslim must believe in all messengers, all holy books, from the first time  Adam descended until the last one; that all human races have received at least one of messenger. No body left behind, no body!;

Well, there is no proof that all races have already received at least one messenger, only claims.

That all religions convey the same thing: Believe in One God and do good deeds.

Osama's religion don't. It teaches evil.

What I have explained, I think, covers all your questions (except unnecessary ones). Now I will arrive to your 'heavy' question, that something that never existed would fit into the definition. I would say frankly YES. Logic, which is the rule of how mind works, only guides human to know God in rationalistic way. It does not make you at all to believe. But you may believe in something totally wrong without  its guidance. Ultimately, it is up to human himself either to believe or disbelieve. But one thing all atheist neglect, that the signs of God's existence are everywhere, in every moment and point, so much so that they cannot see and feel.

but you restricted God to move only in non matter didn't you? you have an obviously worng concept of God.

Debmey

[quote]

Daniel 7: 13
揑 saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Peace,

You said:
"Now you are straying away from your own line of thought. First you were talking about the possibility of God being in human form, now you suddenly extend it to the concept of the Trinity. There is nothing degrading in being matter cos matter was craeted by God."


1. Let us focus on the topic, I'm not talking about Osama.
I never stated the possibility of God being in human form. Based on my argument, it is not possible. What do you have in mind about almightiness?? Is it possible for God Almighty by virtue of His Power to kill Himself?? NO! the statement commits fallacy. Likewise, is it possible for God to go down into earth in a human form? It is like someone creates taufu and he manifest himself in taufu form. No! it is his idea which is manifested in taufu, not he himself.

2. That All races have already received at least one messenger is mentioned in the Qur'an. See (5:48.) (10:47) (35:24). So that no single man can complaint to God that he was not warned in his life.

3. Other issue I would like to raise up; you wonder why Islam does not explain the term "Messiah" which, according to you, is very important.
At least the term is mentioned 9 times in the Qur'an, with emphasizing that Jesus is son of Marry. If you regard it so important and wondering why it is not explained well in the Qur'an, then why the Trinity, which is the very foundation of Christianity, is not mentioned in the Bible??? I don't think religion is a multi level marketing that used to hide something which is very important!


Peace,

Tove

Debmey

1. Let us focus on the topic, I'm not talking about Osama.
I never stated the possibility of God being in human form. Based on my argument, it is not possible. What do you have in mind about almightiness?? Is it possible for God Almighty by virtue of His Power to kill Himself?? NO! the statement commits fallacy. Likewise, is it possible for God to go down into earth in a human form?

And base on the almightiness of God, it is not possible that he is restricted by what you think.

It is like someone creates taufu and he manifest himself in taufu form. No! it is his idea which is manifested in taufu, not he himself.

Thats because the person is not God. You are restricting God based on your understanding of human. That is basically flawed and illogical of you.

2. That All races have already received at least one messenger is mentioned in the Qur'an. See (5:48.) (10:47) (35:24). So that no single man can complaint to God that he was not warned in his life.

That is what the Quran claims, not something that is proven.

3. Other issue I would like to raise up; you wonder why Islam does not explain the term "Messiah" which, according to you, is very important.
At least the term is mentioned 9 times in the Qur'an, with emphasizing that Jesus is son of Marry.

Mentioned 9 times with no explanation. Exactly. why?

If you regard it so important and wondering why it is not explained well in the Qur'an, then why the Trinity, which is the very foundation of Christianity, is not mentioned in the Bible??? I don't think religion is a multi level marketing that used to hide something which is very important!

The term itself was not used but the concept is explicit in the Bible many times. In the case of messiah in Quran, not even mentioned. Muslism are clueless. Why?

Peace,

You said:
"And base on the almightiness of God, it is not possible that he is restricted by what you think. Thats because the person is not God. You are restricting God based on your understanding of human. That is basically flawed and illogical of you."

I say:
1. To make a definition is the very basic of gaining knowledge; That is by way of restricting a term from others. Make a limit that comprehends all qualities of a term, and exclude it from other meaning. Who are we to understand God without using our understanding??? Of course, the reality of God is not restricted to human understanding, but our knowledge of Him is indeed restricted to our understanding.
Do you recommend me to not using my mind in believing in? No, If I were Christian  and told that the Trinity plastered the whole Bible, I would read it all and then decide to believe in or not. I my self do not rely on what people say about. I will utilize my mind.  For me, regardless of my religion, I will not let my self believe in something which contradicts to my logical mind. God created my mind, and it is impossible that knowledge about the Creator contradicts knowledge of His creature.

2. As I said, the term Messiah in the Qur'an is explained in term of negating that Jesus is son of god, and confirming that he is son of Mary. Could it be fair that you insist the explanation of that term on the Qur'an, and ignoring that the Trinity is not mentioned at all in the Bible?

Peace,

Tove

Debmey

I say:
1. To make a definition is the very basic of gaining knowledge; That is by way of restricting a term from others. Make a limit that comprehends all qualities of a term, and exclude it from other meaning. Who are we to understand God without using our understanding??? Of course, the reality of God is not restricted to human understanding, but our knowledge of Him is indeed restricted to our understanding.

Eactly me fren, so why do you restrict God to non matter form?

Do you recommend me to not using my mind in believing in? No, If I were Christian  and told that the Trinity plastered the whole Bible, I would read it all and then decide to believe in or not. I my self do not rely on what people say about. I will utilize my mind.  For me, regardless of my religion, I will not let my self believe in something which contradicts to my logical mind. God created my mind, and it is impossible that knowledge about the Creator contradicts knowledge of His creature.

Thats great, do that for quran and hadiths. Allow your logical mind flow.

2. As I said, the term Messiah in the Qur'an is explained in term of negating that Jesus is son of god, and confirming that he is son of Mary.

Er.. no where is the Quran did it say that messiah means Jesus is only a man, not God. If that were to be the case, then everybody is a messiah too. you realise how crazy you are trying to twist the quran to suit your belief?

Could it be fair that you insist the explanation of that term on the Qur'an, and ignoring that the Trinity is not mentioned at all in the Bible?

sunday school, spiritual warfare and liturgy are not terms that are used in teh Bible too. Does that mean they violate Christianity?

Peace,

1. As I've said, God cannot be in matter form because it violates one of His essences. I've enrolled my argument above, and I will not repeat it here.

2. I do apply my principle to the Qur'an and Hadith too. By doing that I may increase or deepen my knowledge. I read (not chant) the Qur'an regularly and finish it A to Z in every four months.

3. Sunday school, spiritual warfare, liturgy, priest rules etc. which are originally not the teaching of Jesus, of course do not violate Christianity, but from my viewpoint, they are new  inventions. You may investigate when and where they started for the first time. That is your religion's problem and I am not bothered with that.

Anyway, thank you, Debmey, for the discussion. This is my last post on this subject. See you later in other issue. Thanks.

Peace,

Tove

Debmey

1. As I've said, God cannot be in matter form because it violates one of His essences. I've enrolled my argument above, and I will not repeat it here.

You have made your argument based on false assumption that violate God's almightiness. Thats ridiculous and even worst.

2. I do apply my principle to the Qur'an and Hadith too. By doing that I may increase or deepen my knowledge. I read (not chant) the Qur'an regularly and finish it A to Z in every four months.

Then surely you must have noticed that the Quran is disorganised, eratic and highly repetitative.
And if you were to really take notes and compare verses, you can see that there are many internal contradictions not to mention many more external contradictions.
The question I asked about the non explanation of the term masih is a huge short coming of the quran.

3. Sunday school, spiritual warfare, liturgy, priest rules etc. which are originally not the teaching of Jesus, of course do not violate Christianity, but from my viewpoint, they are new  inventions. You may investigate when and where they started for the first time. That is your religion's problem and I am not bothered with that.

Anyway, thank you, Debmey, for the discussion. This is my last post on this subject. See you later in other issue. Thanks.

There you have it. Just because a term is not in the Bible does not mean it violates Christianity. Very reasonable.

Thanks for the discussion. Drop in anytime. We'll have many more meaningful discussions my fren.