why is sacrifice necessary for atonement?

albatross

why not just repentance?

Sephiroth

My question is : Did Jesus's sacrifice actually made the atonement?

IF Mankind did sin (which I doubt) and Jesus's sacrifice was necessary, then WHAT CHANGED?

I don't see anything change. Christians are still sinful before and after they had choose Jesus as savior - matter a fact, they are more sinful than non-believers with adultery, single-sex relationships, organized crime and corruptions of every kind.

Furthermore, I have this nagging question for some time which no Christian (I have ever met) can answer. The question is :- IF two couples - both believe and accepted Jesus as savior get married, does their children born sinless (thus doesn't require Jesus's sacrifice) or is the children still sinful?

IF the two couples are sinless, how can they produce a sinful child?

If children who are born after a certain time do become sinless (due to their parents accepting Jesus), then it could mean that Jesus's sacrifice could not be required in the future because everyone is sinless. Thus, Christianity will end (as it's sole purpose is to atone for human race).

IF Humans are forever sinful, then this could only mean that Jesus's sacrifice (2,000 yrs ago) is in vain. He can NEVER atone for human race because human race are forever sinful in nature.

Sephiroth

What? No answer? Then what use of your religion and Jesus if simple question like this also cannot answer?

sam2012

Reply 3# Sephiroth


   

Actually all of us committed sins in the beginning, all of us had to pay the price of our own sins individually. As in the verse frmo bible:

Romans5:12 [Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned]

Even though the parents’ sins had been forgiven or atoned after they receive Jesus Christ, the child they bore is not become sinless, because fathers and mothers can only inherit our flesh and blood, the spirits instead are given from God.

Father and mother can not inherit sinless spirit. But our spirits that is given from God and that sinned in the very beginning, came to this earth in flesh clothing that sins.

Only God, Jesus has the authority to forgive sins

Mark2:10 [But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man]

No one on earth can forgive our own sins except Him.

Sephiroth

by Sam2012

  Even though the parents’ sins had been forgiven or atoned after they receive Jesus Christ, the child they bore is not become sinless, because fathers and mothers can only inherit our flesh and blood, the spirits instead are given from God.

Father and mother can not inherit sinless spirit. But our spirits that is given from God and that sinned in the very beginning, came to this earth in flesh clothing that sins.

Only God, Jesus has the authority to forgive sins

Are the mother and father sinless after they accept Jesus?
IF they are sinless, WHY can't they have Sinless Spirit?

IF we were to follow your logic that states the reason why humans are Sinful is because the way they were born (through a woman's womb), then a child born from artificial womb (other than a woman's womb) should be considered havoring a Sinless spirit, correct?

Is the Soul which came from God have Sin in it?
IF Soul has Sin, then it is God's fault and not Man's - since it is a fault product from God's manufacturing facility (due to lack of better word).

Or does the Soul is clean but only the way it came into the World which contaiminated the physical body which the Soul housed in?

Also, you may have heard of a case couple of week ago about a child who was born but pronounced death only to found alive several days later. What is a status of a Man (or a woman) who have DIED and RETURN BACK TO LIFE?

Edited to add :

IF Humans are forever sinful, then this could only mean that Jesus's sacrifice (2,000 yrs ago) is in vain. He can NEVER atone for human race because human race are forever sinful in nature.

Note that I have already stated that Jesus's sacrifice could be in vain IF Mankind's nature cannot change. Now you are saying that a person is born sinful by being born through a woman's womb - thus therefore, Jesus's sacrifice IS IN VAIN because no matter how many times he dies, Man will always be born sinful.

Sephiroth

by Sam2012

... the child they bore is not become sinless, because fathers and mothers can only inherit our flesh and blood ...  

I knew I forgot something. Now I remember the question I wanted to ask.

IF being born physically (through a woman's womb) = being born sinful, then WHO DIED FOR JESUS'S SIN?

By the same logic as you have applied, Jesus too must also be born of the Original Sin because he too came to the World through Marry's wombs.

sam2012

The parents are still sinners even they accept Jesus, just their sins committed are forgiven (they are being redeemed). The child born inheriting the physical parents’ flesh and blood. The spirit that sinned in heaven, came into this world still carries that sinful nature.

We were spirits (angels) with God in heaven, anyway our spirits sinned against God. For sinners must come to this earth to face punishment.
Romans6:23 [For the wages of sin is death..]So, we must have committed very grave sins for we face the death punishment.

Only the spirits (angels) who sinned in heaven came to this earth, but there are still many angels are with God in the heaven.
Luke15:7 [I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.]Who are the righteous ones who do not need to repent? They are the angels with God now. Only a small number of angels who sinned if compared to angels who are righteous (one over ninety-nine), need to repent on this earth.

Before we are born into flesh, our spirits had committed sins. (I assume you believe that we existed in spiritual form as testified in the bible). No matter how is our body born, through womb or tube, our spirits carry those sins that we had committed.

Do you think that God did not know man would sin (or man would disobey His command: Genesis2:17 [but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die] ) ?

How can we say He did not know, since we say God knows everything? As in Isaiah46:10 [I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come..]Please allow me to ask : How can we feel our physical fathers’ and mothers’ love?
It’s through sacrifice and giving love. God came to show us His sacrifice and love. God actually wants us to feel more of His love after His children going back spiritually to His arms. He is not creating love like a machine.

When we say a man died, that means his soul has departed from his body. Jesus healed a girl from dead.
Luke8:52-55 [ Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. “Stop wailing,” Jesus said. “She is not dead but asleep.” They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat.]We can see that when her spirit returned, she came alive.

God let this baby gone through this miracle under His purpose. Actually some people do not 100% consider what is written in the Scriptures, but God keeps showing us his mighty power. But sometimes men always feel there’s not enough to justify God, thinking of something more logically and scientifically. But, not in the excuse of the limitation of men, even in thinking, we simply deny God’s purposed plan.
Isaiah55:9 [As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.]We have to obey and repent.

sam2012

Jesus is God, God has no sins. Jesus' body was given by Mary, but spiritually He is God.

Sephiroth

by Sam2012

We were spirits (angels) with God in heaven, anyway our spirits sinned against God. For sinners must come to this earth to face punishment.  

Oh, so now the World is a prison and humans are prisoners, according to your definition.

So, we must have committed very grave sins for we face the death punishment.   

Christians still die, bub. And some of them suffers worst things than non-Christians, such as AIDS, HIV, accidents and such.

Before we are born into flesh, our spirits had committed sins. (I assume you believe that we existed in spiritual form as testified in the bible). No matter how is our body born, through womb or tube, our spirits carry those sins that we had committed.  

Now you are contradicting yourself here. Allow me to qoute YOUR statement.

Romans5:12 [Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned]

Even though the parents’ sins had been forgiven or atoned after they receive Jesus Christ, the child they bore is not become sinless, because fathers and mothers can only inherit our flesh and blood, the spirits instead are given from God.  

First you said that Spirits are from God (Sinless) but we are all sinners because we were born of flesh and blood (through sinful nature a.k.a through a womb). Now you are saying that we had sinned in Heaven itself and end up in the World as punishment? You are contradicting yourself here.

It’s through sacrifice and giving love. God came to show us His sacrifice and love. God actually wants us to feel more of His love after His children going back spiritually to His arms. He is not creating love like a machine.  

I have no idea what kind of family you came from but telling your children that IF they do not follow your command and orders (like in a military), you will disown them (or worse, throw them into prison) IS NOT LOVE, IT IS BLACKMAIL. A MENTAL TORTURE. A CHILD ABUSE. Your God knows crap about loving someone.

Plus, again you contradicting yourself here as well. In the early statement, you said that we all sinned in heaven and have to pay for it on Earth (a prison), WHERE DOES LOVE FIT IN HERE? It sounds more like Christian God is a Jail Warden than a loving father to me.

God let this baby gone through this miracle under His purpose. Actually some people do not 100% consider what is written in the Scriptures, but God keeps showing us his mighty power.  

I didn't ask what God is showing by allowing a Child who died to become alive again. I WAS ONE SUCH CHILD, FOR YOUR INFORMATION. Now I want to know - WHAT IS THE STATUS OF SUCH CHILD IN CHRISTIANITY?

sam2012

As from your writing, death, diseases, injury… these are all physical things. How can we using this physical matter to know deep about the heavenly things, the kingdom of heaven. Jesus suffered, but he overcame. We can not say we follow Jesus, then we can sure be healthy, prosperous, but we are guaranteed of the things above.

To make things understood:
1.        our spirits committed sins in heaven.
2.        we were then already sinners (spirits)
3.        sinners (spirits) were to be punished
4.        sinners (spirits) were banished from heaven to this earth (prison)
5.        how sinners (spirits), in heaven carrying their sins came to this earth to become sinners (in flesh) ?
6.        it was through Adam, through physical birth.

Just like our physical fathers mothers love us, if we do something wrong, they punish us. But inside their hearts are painful enough, they want us to be matured and be good. Since He came to seek us, we can go back home with Him. Our fathers and mothers sure suffered more than we did when we were young. It’s the same, Jesus suffered so much.

God does many things on us everyday, but we are so slow to understand His eternal purpose. Anyhow, most importantly, we always follow Him.

Sephiroth

by Sam2012

Jesus suffered, but he overcame.  

Ahem ... He died. I don't think dying is considered to be overcoming anything.

We can not say we follow Jesus, then we can sure be healthy, prosperous, but we are guaranteed of the things above.   

Last time I checked, one do not have to believe in God or Jesus to be healthy or wealthy. One just need to work hard, exercise well and eat proper food. Matter a fact, I have seen pictures of average Americans in Churches and they look like like fatten pigs than healthy people.

To make things understood:
1.        our spirits committed sins in heaven.
2.        we were then already sinners (spirits)
3.        sinners (spirits) were to be punished
4.        sinners (spirits) were banished from heaven to this earth (prison)
5.        how sinners (spirits), in heaven carrying their sins came to this earth to become sinners (in flesh) ?
6.        it was through Adam, through physical birth.   

See ... here's the thing. IF we were to maintain that the reason Man had failed is because he had sinned in spirit and he will always be born as a sinner, THEN THERE IS NO USE OF JESUS DYING ON A CROSS. IT IS A VAIN SACRIFICE.

ONLY IF the Sacrifice had made Man clean from his Spiritual Fall and return him back to the way he was when Man was first made, can such sacrifice be considered as complete.

I give you another example. Just say your house is in Damansara and I came to pick you up for a tea in Petaling Jaya. Once our meeting is over, I drop you at KL Bus station and tell you to go on your own. Can I say that I have returned you home to your home in Damansara?

In the same way, IF the sacrifice of Jesus was to be fullfilled, Man must be cleansed from Spiritual decontamination completely. He cannot be born as a sinner anymore. In another word, Man must cease to be a Sinner after Jesus died or the sacrifice is in vain. You cannot go half way by stating Jesus had died for your sins BUT the state of sin still remains. Then WFT he died for if the Sin remains?

Just like our physical fathers mothers love us, if we do something wrong, they punish us.  

There's a fine line between Parental Love and Parental Abuse. Just because a parent had gave birth and feed us, they cannot treat us like animals - abuse us physically or mentally. What Christianity is doing to Man is considered a mental abuse. It kept pushing the fear of death and damnation up everyone's rear end by stating - "You must accept Jesus or die horribly."

Anyhow, most importantly, we always follow Him.

Are you sure you following God or something else?

Because if Adam and Eve who were without Sin can be fooled by Satan, I assume it is not hard for Satan to fool men with sinful nature. So in the end, HOW SURE ARE YOU THAT YOU ARE WORSHIPPING GOD AND NOT SATAN IN DISGUISE?

Sephiroth

Jesus is God, God has no sins. Jesus' body was given by Mary, but spiritually He is God.
sam2012 Post at 11-5-2012 12:38

Yes, but she is also the descendant of Eve, is she not?

By logic, the same thing which makes everyone else sinner (by physical body and spirit - which is to be born from a woman's womb) should also makes Jesus a sinner as well - regardless whether his spirit is from God or not.

You cannot say you are clean physically if you wear dirty clothes, just because you are had bathed before. The dirty clothes here is the body Jesus has (which comes from Mary, who descended from Eve).

sam2012

Jesus, he overcame the Satan evil scheme, then we can see now the gospel, the good news is spread over the whole earth. Whatever God has purposed will never fail, people fight against the prophets will then find themselves fighting against God.

Fat, thin, poor, rich, handsome, ugly… all this physical measures can not judge a person spiritually.

Our body can not enter to heaven, only our spirits can. God only brings our spirits which are imperishable back to heaven. For our bodies which are perishable can not enter to heaven. Yes, we are now in the midway, if we get His ticket, we have the opportunity to go back to our heavenly hometown.

Jesus died so that our sins can be forgiven for those who receives Him.
Example: G did something wrong, you forgave him, you would not punish him, G escaped from your punishment, but G really did that something wrong, this fact did not change.

Our prison in here is really bad, but thanks to God we are still provided in many ways. So we must spread this good news, so that even the people who are in really damned situation may have hope, the hope of the heaven.

You are right, I’m worried of being tempted by Satan, as Satan works very hard now than ever. I pray that I can have this strength to remain in Him until the end. Yes, nowadays really many come as a disguise of the shepherd, and many also only listen to pastors without look into bible. I pray to God that I can follow Him through the bible.

Sephiroth

Sam2012, I hate to say this, but you have not answered any of my questions properly. Matter a fact, I sense that you had avoid the questions completely. These are the following "facts" which I could conclude from our discussion so far :

1. Christians (or at least, YOU) view the World as a prison and that Mankind had done something which could require him to be send to this prison. From that point of view, God is NOT a loving father but a cruel and sadist Jail Warden. The Sadist part comes from him forcing the prisoners with additional punishment (of worshipping him) and those who fails to meet his expectation are send to a permanent prison (called Hell).

2. Christians (or YOU) believe that God had created Man WITH SIN. First you said that Man is sinned because of one Man (Adam) and inherited through physical contact. Then you change topic and said that Man is sinned Spiritually (which means God created Man with Sin). From that context, we can conclude that Man is a faulty "product" of God (thus the true fault of Man's nature is God).

3. According to Christians (or YOU), everyone who is born physically are bound by the Sin. However, you got stuck when I asked - What about Jesus? Even so he has the Spirit of God (which I could accept, No problem there), by the same logic you had applied to everyone else, he too could be bound by the Sin due to be born through a mortal woman (Mary who descended from Eve).

4. And Finally, Christians (or YOU) have no idea what is the status of a person who lived, then died and then lived again. Even so such person exists in the Bible (Jesus resurrected couple of people, including the one who is called Lazarus).  Question here was - are such person still bound by the Sin?

sam2012

It’s ok, maybe I’ll tell again if you are still in confused.

1. Bible testifies : we committed very grave sins. If no punishment, we would not learn, and it’s fair that wrong doers bear their own punishment. Our Father in heaven is so heart pain.
But how can we say that His heart is painful?
he came to this earth to show how he suffered, when Jesus was on this earth, his live
was full of suffering.

Why Jesus took this suffering?
To show He loves us, He wants us to realize deeply about His love to us.

2. You totally misunderstood my explanation.
     1st: you got to be clear that we were angels before we are in human form now.
     2nd: there was no earth when we were in heaven happily
     3rd: we were deceived by Satan to commit sins.

     Bible says we human consist of 2 parts : Body and Soul
     How God planned to punish us?
     He created this earth and Adam, Adam was in human form, with human flesh
     
     How He formed Adam?
     Using dust to form the body, and the soul who sinned put into this body.

     God just need to make the body of Adam once, the other bodies (Adam’s offspring )
     was  through giving birth, every souls who sinned was put into these bodies.

     Please think properly now, where do the bodies came from? Isn’t it from Adam
     And where do the souls came from? Isn’t it from the heaven, and did these souls sin?  
     Of course they had sinned.

Up to here, Do you understand?

Sephiroth

by Sam2012

It’s ok, maybe I’ll tell again if you are still in confused.  

I'm confused? OK fine ... I'm confused because your religion is confusing.

1. Bible testifies : we committed very grave sins. If no punishment, we would not learn, and it’s fair that wrong doers bear their own punishment. Our Father in heaven is so heart pain.

This is called "Unnecessary Guilt". Christianity exists by pushing unnecessary guilt onto it's followers. First guilt - the illusion that they had commited some Sin. Second guilt - that by not following Jesus, they will fall again (the second time).

Christians have forgotten one simple fact - If those who have believed (in Jesus) are trully saved, they should have reached the same level which Adam and Eve were before the fall. The very fact that they did not shows that the whole concept is FALSE.

God just need to make the body of Adam once, the other bodies (Adam’s offspring ) was  through giving birth, every souls who sinned was put into these bodies.  

It is illegal (through any laws) to punish the son and daughters for their parents' crime. Your God is has no merciless that he went on to punished countless generations of children of the one who commited the crime. This cannot be a work of a merciful God, at least, not my God. Thus I believe that Christianity was ushered by the Devil, not God.

sam2012

Actually Chriantians believe what is written in the Scriptures, bible is the fact. Then why do we believe bible is the fact? because it's with scientific and historical proof.

And bible tells us that we really committed sins in heaven, this is the fact bible says. This is what christian believe. Unless someone can really prove bible have errors, bible is wrong.

In your concept, it's Adam who made you committed sins. This is misunderstanding. You are just inheriting the flesh body through Adam. But, before you are born, you as an angel of God had committed sins. Adam did not make you commit sins, but you are born through his body carrying your sins committed in heaven.

This is what bible tells, you may feel doubtful to believe bible. Anyway, there are plenty of proof that the bible is telling the truth, and it's a book of prophesy.

Sephiroth

by Sam2012

Actually Chriantians believe what is written in the Scriptures, bible is the fact. Then why do we believe bible is the fact? because it's with scientific and historical proof.   

No, you believe in this fairy tale book called the bible because you have nothing else to believe in. Christianity had stripped you of your identity, your heritage and your past. All you have now is your Bible and you cannot let it go without destroying yourself. Your Bible is a straw which prevents you from drowning.

In your concept, it's Adam who made you committed sins. This is misunderstanding. You are just inheriting the flesh body through Adam. But, before you are born, you as an angel of God had committed sins. Adam did not make you commit sins, but you are born through his body carrying your sins committed in heaven.  

No, in my concept there is NO SUCH THING AS ADAM or ORIGINAL SIN. Both are mere concept to bind the People to the Church so the Priests and Pope can control the mass like sheeps.

freeman_long

Reply 18# Sephiroth

The only thing God wants us to do is "to believe in Him" (Jesus Christ, including His Word-The Book). Once you believe in Him, you shall be saved.

P/S: "To believe in Him" means to accept Him into you, not believe that His is "exist".

Sephiroth

Reply  Sephiroth

The only thing God wants us to do is "to believe in Him" (Jesus Christ, includi ...
freeman_long Post at 17-5-2012 14:22

Funny statement. To believe in him does not equal to believe that he "exists"?
Your religion is a religion of False and Corruption. EVERYTHING within it is False and Corruption. And I do mean EVERYTHING.

You claim of a merciful God yet your God so willingly punish countless generations of Children because of a crime of a single person all because of blood relation.

You claim of Salvation through Sacrifice but you know so clearly that Mankind did not reach the same level as he had when he was in Eden. One cannot claim Salvation while one still have the change of being damn again. Salvation = Complete Escape from Damnation, which your religion does not provide.

You claim that your religion is true YET I have seen many (if not all) are crooked and corrupted. It is from YOUR SOCIETY that the World have seen many of it's Evil today - Capitalism (where the fat men and women eat and drink while ignoring the starving children in the street), Communism, Corrupted Science and technology (where Men of knowledge are more keen to disprove Christian God than to improve the World) and MANY MORE.

Your religion is not a religion of God but a curse from the Devil. Anyone who follows this false belief will continue to worship the dead and damn the World further. Be forewarn that you will be burned just as the dead burns.