why is sacrifice necessary for atonement?

sam2012

Then May I know when leaving the church, where can i escape to?

How can i go to heaven?

Sephiroth

Then May I know when leaving the church, where can i escape to?

How can i go to heaven?
sam2012 Post at 23-5-2012 10:06

Good God ... You people don't see it, do you? Are you all blind that you cannot even see what God wants from you? That you (in general, just like everyone else) are being TESTED here?

It is NOT about DYING and going to HEAVEN, for God's sake, man! It is just a test to see whether you are qualified to return to God or not. I don't know whether there is a Heaven or Hell - and frankly speaking, I really don't care. The bottomline here is - it is about LIVING. You are NOT LIVING. You are so daydreaming about dying and going to Heaven that you are DEAD HERE AND NOW. You are wasting God's gift of life by daydreaming and not living. Don't you see that???

FYI - You may leave the Church (or the Mosque) but you do not leave God. As long as your faith in God (and not Jesus) remain in tact, you can live your life as best you can - by being good to yourself, to your family, to your neighbour and to the society in general - JUST AS HE HAD INSTRUCTED IN THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS. IT IS NOT ABOUT REACHING HEAVEN.

Heaven is here just to test you - whether you are living your life as instructed, OR whether you are living your life in a delusion (of wanting to go to heaven). It is a TEST.

sam2012

Then after I die, is that the end?

Actually do you have religion now?

Yes, i agree to follow the ten commandments. God did command every man to be circumcised. Do you agree on this?

freeman_long

Then May I know when leaving the church, where can i escape to?
sam2012 Post at 23-5-2012 10:06

Sorry that I can't get your point.

How can i go to heaven?
sam2012 Post at 23-5-2012 10:06

Let me tell you the truth: there is no material heaven. Heaven is real if you receive Jesus Christ within you. His is going to abide within you, then there is heaven. The truth is: where Jesus Christ is, where heaven would be. Once you accept Jesus Christ within you, then you would be really in heaven.

freeman_long

Funny statement. To believe in him does not equal to believe that he "exists"?
Sephiroth Post at 21-5-2012 10:52

Many people believe that Jesus is exist, but not accept Him as his saver.
Those who not only believe He is exists and also, especially, receive Him as his saver and let Him abide within him, he shall be saved.

John1:12
But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

This verse reveals that to believe Him is to receive Him (as your saver), not only to believe that He is exist. 'Receive' means to accept Him within you, and let Him abide within you, because He wants to abide within you.

freeman_long

You claim of Salvation through Sacrifice but you know so clearly that Mankind did not reach the same level as he had when he was in Eden. One cannot claim Salvation while one still have the change of being damn again. Salvation = Complete Escape from Damnation, which your religion does not provide.
Sephiroth Post at 21-5-2012 10:52

The only way to get the salvation is to believe into Him. 'To believe into Him' means to accept Him as your savor and to receive Him within you. He is abidance-Christ. Once He abide within a person, He would never leave. He would abide within His believers ever forever. Spirit of man is His eternal dwelling place.

Sephiroth

by Sam2012

Then after I die, is that the end?  

You are already DEAD NOW.

Actually do you have religion now?  

Irrelevant question.

Yes, i agree to follow the ten commandments. God did command every man to be circumcised. Do you agree on this?  

WHAT do you think the Ten Commandment is? The US Legislation Commandments? That you have the right to agree or disagree? You have a choice - You do or You don't.

And correction - Every JEWS are to be circimcised. The Ten Commandment IS FOR JEWS, CHRISTIANS and those who CHOOSE to follow the Laws brought by Moses and set forth by Abraham. In that context, Hindus and Buddhists have no moral, ethical or legal obligations to follow the Ten Commandments (since they have their own Commandments through the Bhavagad Gita and Gautama Buddha's teachings). Understand?

Sephiroth

by freeman_long

  'Receive' means to accept Him within you, and let Him abide within you, because He wants to abide within you.

Accept him within you ... last time I check, that is how a Parasitic Infestion starts. You allow a parasite to take over your body, allowing your immune system to "give way". Slowly the Parasite make you do crazy things (including things which makes no sense) and finally, it kills you when you are no longer required.

Are you sure that you are worshipping God or some sort of parasitic life form in the name of Jesus Christ?

albatross

Nevermind this thread lah. i've already found a wiki page on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_in_Christianity
apparently there are many theories on atonement: the one that makes most sense (to me at least) is the moral influence theory. most christians today (including the ones in this thread it seems) believe in the substitution theory or the satisfaction theory, which i have to say, sounds... hmmm...

i guess what i find strange about this concept is that god cannot forgive sins unless there is a sacrifice, which comes into question, is it even forgiveness at all if there is a form of sacrifice. then the theory tells that, that the way god does away with sin is coming down on earth, incarnating himself in the form of man, then have other people kill him, which makes the doctrine even more weirder

but to each his own i guess

Sephiroth

by albatross

i guess what i find strange about this concept is that god cannot forgive sins unless there is a sacrifice, which comes into question, is it even forgiveness at all if there is a form of sacrifice. then the theory tells that, that the way god does away with sin is coming down on earth, incarnating himself in the form of man, then have other people kill him, which makes the doctrine even more weirder  

You know what I find to be the weirdest?

A Christian God - who could create the Universe, the World and every living thing on it - WITHOUT ANY HELP FROM HUMANS - could require to have a son through a human female, had it killed in name of saving the rest of the humans. That's the weirdest part.

WHAT? Such powerful God cannot forgive Mankind without this melodrama?
This whole affair with Jesus sounds a look like a poorly directed Soap Opera.

sam2012

Still confused of your points:

1. Why do men need to suffer such pain of going through circumcision? And what's its points actually?

2. You said: "The Ten Commandment IS FOR JEWS, CHRISTIANS and those who CHOOSE to follow the Laws brought by Moses and set forth by Abraham".
Do you know that christians don't necessitate circumcision?

3. If Hindus or Buddhists get circumcised, can they then become like the Jews also?

4. You said: "The Ten Commandment IS FOR JEWS, CHRISTIANS and those who CHOOSE to follow the Laws brought by Moses and set forth by Abraham".
How can you say circumcision can for those who choose to, while only Jews are to follow? Who say non-Jews also can choose to follow?

Sephiroth

by Sam2012

1. Why do men need to suffer such pain of going through circumcision? And what's its points actually?  

Actually there's not much pain in circumcision. It has the same level discomfort as ear-piercing, nose-piercing or anything else which gets poked for the first time (Yes, ladies ... that too ). So, don't make it sound like you require an open-heart surgery.

Oh, the point here is ... Jews don't need Jesus because for Jews, Jesus is nothing more than the foreskin of their penis.

2. You said: "The Ten Commandment IS FOR JEWS, CHRISTIANS and those who CHOOSE to follow the Laws brought by Moses and set forth by Abraham".
Do you know that christians don't necessitate circumcision?  

Then you do not follow the Ten Commandment and the Laws set forth by Abraham, and therefore, should not be considered worshipping Yahweh.

When Man choose to worship God, he does so by accepting (entering legal contract) with God to follow certain Rules and regulations. Basically it means that Religion is a set of Rules and regulations which God and (certain race of) Man agreed upon to follow in exchange for certain assistance (in this case, Yahweh's assistance in bring the Hebrews out of Egypt).

But Christians seems to claim that they have made another legal contract with Yahweh (through Jesus) but failed to produce ANY Rules or Regulations which they required to follow (like the Ten Commandments or Laws set by Abraham). So therefore, logically speaking, there are ONLY TWO POSSIBILITIES HERE :

1. Either they were buffling when they said that they made a legal contract with Yahweh (which means Christianity is False), OR

2. They made a contract with something else which claiming to be Yahweh, God of Israel.

3. If Hindus or Buddhists get circumcised, can they then become like the Jews also?  

Answer :- NO. Hindus and Buddhists can get circumcised for any number of reasons - including for purpose of sanitary (cleaning oneself). However, such act does not mean that they are Jews for such action do not potray their acceptance of Yahweh. They must stop living as Hindus and Buddhists and follow the Ten Commandments and the Laws set by Abraham in order to become Jews (after the Jewish clans had accepted them).

Cutting your "Ahem" doesn't make you a Jews, or every Muslim on the planet could be claiming that they are Jews also.

How can you say circumcision can for those who choose to, while only Jews are to follow? Who say non-Jews also can choose to follow?  

One question ... ARE YOU STUPID?
I said Ten Commandments are for Jews, I did not say Circumcision is for Jews only. Anyone could circumcise themselves - I have couple of Indians guys who did it before. UNDERSTAND WHAT PEOPLE WRITE BEFORE MAKING STUPID COMMENTS, PLEASE.

freeman_long

Accept him within you ... last time I check, that is how a Parasitic Infestion starts. You allow a parasite to take over your body, allowing your immune system to "give way". Slowly the Parasite make you do crazy things (including things which makes no sense) and finally, it kills you when you are no longer required.

Are you sure that you are worshipping God or some sort of parasitic life form in the name of Jesus Christ?
Sephiroth Post at 24-5-2012 12:25

The real worship and serve God  is to let Him do His will and His works through us, not by our will or what we want to do. He is everything and we are not. He is all and within all.
   
Many people think that to worship and serve God is that he can do everything for God. But God is almighty, He no needs anybody to do anything for Him. He just wants us to receive Him as food, as beverage, as living water of life, as sabbath, as good-land, as sunshine, as shelter.....etc. For we, His is every thing, because He is the 'I am", means His is everything for us. He is whatever we want. You want sabbath? He is sabbath for you. You want peace? He is peace for you. You want grace? He is grace for you. You want happy? He is happy for you. You want comfort? He is comfort for you....etc. Once you are depend on Him, He is everything for you.

sam2012

If according to these Abraham's and Mosses' Laws, not only the ten Commandments, there are still so many regulations, let's point out a few:
1. On the seventh day, God's people are not allowed to do any jobs.
2. Offer burnt offering to God.
3. Using animal blood to sanctify...people, temple,..
4. ... and many many

Now, Christians, even Muslims don't follow, so these two groups are not qualified to be God's people?

Sephiroth

by freeman_long

The real worship and serve God  is to let Him do His will and His works through us, not by our will or what we want to do. He is everything and we are not. He is all and within all.   

Then what the f&^k are you? A piece of $hit?

ONLY Christianity can further condemn humans to be nothing more than a deadwood through their so-called worship. They make God look like a moron and humans like a piece of crap on the road.

Sephiroth

If according to these Abraham's and Mosses' Laws, not only the ten Commandments, there are still so  ...
sam2012 Post at 25-5-2012 16:03

IF this is God's conditions (to Jews), then WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION IT?

The Convenant between God and the Hebrews are simple - God saves their sorry a$$ and provide them with a safe-haven, in exchange, they worship and FOLLOW His commandments. No questions asked. No arguments allowed. Clear contract between God and the Hebrew.

No one said that the Christians and Muslims are part of this Convenant.

sam2012

" No one said that the Christians and Muslims are part of this Convenant. "

Are you really serious in this statement?
Do you know that, with this, you are saying both Christians and Muslims are not following God's words, thus they are both going against God.

Is that your doubt on God's existence makes you put on such view?

Sephiroth

by Sam2012

Are you really serious in this statement?
Do you know that, with this, you are saying both Christians and Muslims are not following God's words, thus they are both going against God.  

Yes, I'm VERY SERIOUS in my statement.

Matter a fact, I will SWEAR here and now - As God as my witness, I claim that BOTH Muslims and Christians are not part of the Convenant with God, for the ONLY RACE to make Convenant with God is the Hebrews.

Christians have been "going against" God for a very long time. They are the reason for many evil things we have today - Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Porn-materials, Apatheids and the list goes on.

Muslims turn God from a loving Father to a Brothel manager with Muhammad as His pimp. They do not fight for God but for the rewards they daydream of Heaven and the virgins inside. Thus such is not my God.

Is that your doubt on God's existence makes you put on such view?  

Correction - I do not doubt in God's existence. I have doubt about Christianity and Islam as religion of God (and not of the Devil).

sam2012

Wow.. such a bold and clear cut comment. You make it very clear now that you are not denying God, but you are against the practices, and some basic believing of the christianity and Muslim, claiming that they had had error in their believes.

Since you believe to God and follow His commandments (10 commandments and Moses' Laws), then do you really follow these commands ?
1. Rest on the seventh day, God's people are not allowed to do any jobs on this day.
2. Offer burnt offering to God, lamb, bull, and so on.
3. Using animal blood to sanctify...people, temple,.. especially when worshipping
4. .. and some others as well.

Sephiroth

by Sam2012

Since you believe to God and follow His commandments (10 commandments and Moses' Laws), then do you really follow these commands ?
1. Rest on the seventh day, God's people are not allowed to do any jobs on this day.
2. Offer burnt offering to God, lamb, bull, and so on.
3. Using animal blood to sanctify...people, temple,.. especially when worshipping
4. .. and some others as well.  

Once again, you have misunderstood the meaning of Convenant.

Convenant means a legal (and ethical) agreement between Man and God. It is an agreement between Yahweh and the Hebrew that they will follow the above mentioned Laws in exchange of bring them out of Slavery.

In Christianity, there was no legal (or ethical) agreement between God and the Christians (same with the Muslims). Therefore, there is no Convenant to be found in either religions, thus my claim that either of them are not following God's words.

And in Hinduism and Buddhism, there are no convenant as well, as they follow their own religions before God revealed Himself to the Hebrew. Hindus and Buddhists only required to follow the teachings of their Masters (through the Bhavagad Gita) and Gautama Buddha. Therefore, they do not required to follow the laws of Moses and Abraham as the Hebrews do.

However, Christians and Muslims - who kept claiming that their religions are based on Abraham and Moses - WILL BE JUDGED accordingly to the agreement (Convenant) - to see whether they actually following the Laws and merely corrupting the Words of God for their own pleasures and ignorance.