What Soora 2:23 really says to SFE Talk?

Debmey

Producing a Sura

    And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides God, if your (doubts) are true.

    -- Qur'an 2:23 (trans. A. Yusuf Ali)

Although as a Christian I certainly can't claim to be impartial in matters of religion, I have always been a little put off by the challenge in Qur'an 2:23.

A minor objection is that aesthetics can never be a measure of truth. Although truth can certainly be beautiful, so can lies. On the other hand, truth can sometimes be unattractive - like an uncut diamond, or a boring sermon.

Still, I'm not sure that's a major obstacle. It could plausibly be argued that Allah was not making beauty the measure of truth, so much as he was making the Qur'an's beauty a sign to doubters. It's a subtle distinction, but I think it's valid - not unlike Moses besting the sorcerers of Egypt with his miracles. Miracles never became the standard of truth in a logical sense (most of us have probably heard of "lying wonders"), but Moses's miracles were a sign that Allah was with him.

So the inappropriateness of aesthetics as an arbiter of truth is not my major objection. The real problem is much graver. In particular, I believe that the main problem is that this is not a legitimate challenge at all, because the deck is heavily stacked in favor of the Qur'an.

There is a subtle but very real circularity for believing Muslims. The circularity goes like this: If you're an orthodox Muslim, you believe that the entire Qur'an is the very word of God, and is therefore inerrant. As an implication of this, he or she also believes that there is no other writing as eloquent as the Qur'an. Therefore, any attempt to "produce a Sura like thereunto" must fail - thus verifying that the Qur'an is the very word of God and inerrant. In fact, the verse following the challenge affirms the impossibility of producing such a Sura, and threatens disbelievers with the Fire whose fuel is men and stones:

    But if ye cannot - and of a surety ye cannot - then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.

    -- Qur'an 2.24 (trans. A. Yusuf Ali)

It is no surprise, then, that Muslims have found no sura equal to the Qur'an. The surprise would be if they had, since even admitting the possibility of a better Sura contradicts 2:24, which says "of a surety ye cannot," hence being a sign of disbelief.

When I see a challenge like this it does not convince me of the Qur'an's truth. It does rather the opposite, making me suspect that the message is false. (By the way, I mean no offense to any Muslims who may read this. I just couldn't think of any inoffensive way to say this.)

It seems to me that the real test of truth is how well it stands up when stripped of eloquence:

    When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

    -- 1 Corinthians 2:1-5

Eloquence is a good thing, a powerful servant of truth. But it is also fickle, serving falsehood as eagerly as truth.

So, how well do the messages of Islam and Christianity stand up on their own merits? Now that's a question worth debating.

Fuzzman

To Debmey: So how scientific is the Bible? Care to put forth any proofs Debmey?

To Iman: Good job.

To Barney: What's your gain in all of this - pitting the Bible and Quran? Wanna talk or even discuss about the weaknesses of your Hindu faith?

ARI FUZZMAN

hiburanmalam

to fuzzman, Iman_6:
I admire how knowledgeable you are about Islam. I have always been interested in your posts. May Allah bless your efforts.

Debmey

unfortunately still not good enough to defend this sura 2:23 thing. can you please help fuzzy out?

Originally posted by Debmey at 10-1-2007 05:05 PM
Producing a Sura

    And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are a ...

Well, this critic only see the part of 揺loquence

Debmey

problem is, the quran has been proven to be full of flaws.

Originally posted by hiburanmalam at 11-1-2007 02:54 AM
to fuzzman, Iman_6:
I admire how knowledgeable you are about Islam. I have always been interested in your posts. May Allah bless your efforts.

The credits should go to Fuzzman. Im only a new learner to the great challenges/obstacles for all of us Muslim in this era.

Salam.

Originally posted by Debmey at 11-1-2007 03:59 PM
problem is, the quran has been proven to be full of flaws.

Proven by people like you, who cares?

Debmey

proven not by me but anyone who use logic and bother. You can do it too, its not difficult at all.

Fuzzman

Originally posted by hiburanmalam at 11-1-2007 02:54 AM
to fuzzman, Iman_6:
I admire how knowledgeable you are about Islam. I have always been interested in your posts. May Allah bless your efforts.

Thank you for the nice words you've put in for the both of us.Appreciate it. If you've been around for as long as I've been, knowledge will inevitably grow on you and that's a fact not to be jested upon. Ironic as it may seem but the very thing that has pushed me to be a better and more prepared Moslem in the face of adversity and uncertainty, is profoundly coming not from the home team, but from the fight team of the likes of Debmey. They are the ones that have cladded my resolve with the armor of faith and resilience. And for that I thank them profusely.

Stick around and you will know what I mean.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by  Fuzzman at 12-1-2007 11:27 AM ]

Debmey

looks like Fuzzy has no more reply to ths sura 2:23 challenge hoax.

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Iman_6 at 11-1-2007 04:03PM:
The credits should go to Fuzzman. I'm only a new learner to the great challenges/obstacles for all of us Muslim in this era. Salam.

You may be new in here but you've got spunk. That much I've noticed in the style and line of your queries and responses. A classic Kennkid or even perhaps another Fuzzman in the mould, just waiting to hatch out. For sure that spunk drives your resolve in here. Give it a couple months with more exposure to boot, and you'd be good to go on any subjects anybody might wanna throw at you. You'd probably be yelling "Bring them on" as easy as snapping your fingers by then! Just give it time to mellow out. You just gotta go with the flow and ride out the surf.You'll know what I mean when the time comes.

As for credits, I'd be glad to have you as Point Man on my recon squad any time.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by  Fuzzman at 13-1-2007 02:29 AM ]

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 12-1-2007 11:31 AM:
looks like Fuzzy has no more reply to ths sura 2:23 challenge hoax.
[quote]Originally posted by Debmey at 27-11-2006 11:27 PM:
You gave an objective and a criteria. Not an objective criteria my fren. The objective criteria is a measurable criteria to compare the suras to decide which is objectively better. What kind of attribute do you want to compare? Which sura do you want to use for comparison? How long shld the sura be?

[/quote]
It's not that I do not have anymore replies to you. It's just that I'm finally kicking back on my hard earned investments here and paying my fellow bros and sisters here courtesy calls made possible by you.

I think it is you that have no more answers and therefore no more colleteral to spend in here because you are by now one very confused opponent. What rubbish you talk? You said I gave an objective and a criteria for soora 2:23 but they don't add up? So tell me your justification for that assumption of yours? Now where did the line split between an objective and a criteria but not an OBJECTIVE CRITERIA?
Please clarifiy your self-imposed hoax aight?

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

yes, 'objective' is an adjective and 'criteria' is a noun.

Wjhy else woudl there be the use of the two words between us it they are supposed to be the same meaning?

Come on, where is your objective criteria for the sura 2:23 challenge?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 15-1-2007 08:38 AM
yes, 'objective' is an adjective and 'criteria' is a noun. Wjhy else woudl there be the use of the two words between us it they are supposed to be the same meaning? Come on, where is your objective criteria for the sura 2:23 challenge?

I'm interested to know your personal take on what the "Objective Criteria" should have meant to be. And also I would definately like to know what drives your conviction, in that the objective and the criteria are in separation? I on the other hand, am convinced that soora 2:23 encompasses the full embodiment of a full-fledge OBJECTIVE CRITERIA.

You say that the word "Objective" is an adjective. Hurrah, good for you but then again, the word itself functions in four differentials of adjective, noun, complement and correlative bases.

In an adjective base it means:
a:-relating to or existing as an object of thought without consideration of independent existence - used chiefly in medieval philosophy,
b:- of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers ; having reality independent of the mind

In a noun base it means:-
something toward which effort is directed ; an aim, goal, or end of action.

As for Criteria, it is a plural noun for criterion. KritErion from the Greek etymology originating from krinein meaning to judge or decide as in:-
1.  a standard on which a judgment or decision may be based
2.  a characterizing mark or trait.

So in ending the word "Objective" can be a noun and not only a adjective.The Objective Criteria has been staring at you all this time. Your ignorance with the addition of new frown lines on your forehead, coupled with growing greys and a receeding hairline is judge to that forced ignorance of yours.

Once again I'd be happy if you could clarify your stance in clearer view of your opinions of my Objective Criteria being in separation.Thanks Debmey.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by  Fuzzman at 17-1-2007 11:22 AM ]

Debmey

So you think the use of the word 'objective' with 'criteria' can be a noun?
Ahahahahahahahahah................................................

I think you need to go back to grade school again fuzzy.

Fuzzman

You're not really reading what I write. If you feel what I put up does not add up, then show me the truth. Laugh all you want Debmey but I'll definately be the one that will laugh last. You said that I have a Objective and a Criteria but not in total. Once again I'd be happy if you could clarify your stance in clearer view of your opinions of my Objective Criteria being in separation. Think you're grown-up enough to handle it?

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

I think you need to brush up your english before we move on. otherwise you are wasting your time in bigotry like the quran.

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 15-1-2007 08:38 AM:
yes, 'objective' is an adjective and 'criteria' is a noun.
Originally posted by Debmey at 17-1-2007 11:33 AM
So you think the use of the word 'objective' with 'criteria' can be a noun?
Ahahahahahahahahah.....I think you need to go back to grade school again fuzzy.
Originally posted by Debmey at 18-1-2007 10:49 AM :
I think you need to brush up your english before we move on. otherwise you are wasting your time in bigotry like the quran.

Debmey says that the word "Objective " is a adjective. Try answering this Debmey:-

http://www.gibson-design.com/phi ... -$.html#REFERRING_1
objective-complement -  is a noun if taken as part of a speech.

http://www.gibson-design.com/phi ... E-COMPLEMENT_1.html
The word "Objective" in a complement in differentia is a noun or adjective referring to the same existent as the direct-object .

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=objective
ob穓ec穞ive /əbˈdʒɛktɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uhb-jek-tiv] Pronunciation Key
杗oun
1.something that one's efforts or actions are intended to attain or accomplish; purpose; goal; target: the objective of a military attack; the objective of a fund-raising drive.

For the benefit of those dwelling the life in this thread, I don't really care much for grammar squabbles with Debmey, nor do I want to take it to the next level, notch..whatever! What I'm more interested in is the fact that Debmey has until now, been very very illiterate on the application of the usage of the "OBJECTIVE CRITERIA" being commissioned in this thread. So when is Debmey going to explain why soora 2:23 has no qualities nor is worthy of being a"OBJECTIVE CRITERIA" as a test? Debmey admits the soora of having a objective and a criteria but does not qualify as a objective criteria. So what do you people make of this? Debmey do you have an answer?

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by  Fuzzman at 19-1-2007 11:08 PM ]

Debmey

Thank you fuzzy. so based on the info you gave above, aren't you agreeing with me that objective is an adjective in this case? Aren't you contradicting yourself with your cut and paste above?
So can you tell us what is so objective about your criteria?