Unbroken Timeline in Human history within the Vedas.

Sephiroth

Vedas existed since time immemorial. Many believe that Sage Veda Vyasa wrote them around 3100 BCE, but the fact is that he just divided the complete vedas into four parts. Earlier to him, all 4 of them existed together.

Vyasa categorised the primordial single Veda into four. Hence he was called Veda Vyasa, or “Splitter of the Vedas,” the splitting being a feat that allowed people to understand the divine knowledge of the Veda. The word Vyasa means split, differentiate, or describe. Although Veda Vyasa did his work around 5000 years ago, the rig veda leads to a date much beyond human imagination.

Rigveda 1-161-13 states, “ Who awakened Rubhus ? ” (Rubhus means clouds)

The Sun replied, ” The dog, because today is the end of the year. ” . The dog means the Canis Major or the Mrigasira Nakshatra.

End of year can be considered as end of a tough summer season and time for agriculture (rainy season). Clouds were awakened by the Dog. It means that the clouds began rainy season when sun enters Mrigasira Nakshatra. In present era, rains start in india when sun enters Canis Major (Mrigasira Nakshatra) in Niryanaya method. Vedas are not composed in present era, so atleast one cycle of the precession of equinoxes must have been completed. There are 27 Nakshatras in Indian Astrology. The rate of the precession is 960 years per Nakshatra.

Thus precession through 27 Nakshatras must have taken place in 25920 years. So the Rigveda is atleast 25920 years old (if we assume only one precession has passed since then).
Subtracting present 2000 years AD will lead the date to 25720 BCE.

In another verse, Rigveda 4-57-5 requests Shunasirau to shower water made in the heavens on the Earth. Shuna means dog. Sirau means two heads. The two heads of dogs means the two stars Canis major and minor. i.e. the Mrigasira Nakshatra. This shows the beginning of the rainy season on the Mrigasira Nakshatra, the period being 23720 years BCE.

The oral tradition continued for many generations, so the exact date cannot be reached. O fcourse, if many precessions passed since that hymn was composed, then the age of Rig Veda will be multiples of 25920 years.

I qoute this from a post in Facebook, send by a friend. Question here is - Does Al Quran or the Bible able produce any date or year which shows that this belief system is based on human history and NOT something created out of the imagination of Muhammad or some Roman clerics?

Also, when I said date, I don't mean date of Hijrah or when a battle started or when Muhammad started to screw around. I meant date of event which humans at the time (the books were written) did not know of.

Sephiroth

Human Race have been around for 250,000 years but ONLY in the past 15,000 years, Human race have settled down in banks of large rivers like Nile, Sindhu, Ganges, Mekong and the Yellow River (China) and started to make settlement. Which means that during this time, they were agricultural people who studied the stars, moons and the weather patterns of the World.

It is possible that this wisdom were not something produce in one or two generations and that human society had arrived at a specific region, moved around up and down the river, settling down in various parts of the river for some time and perform hunting, gathering and agriculture (which could be like a lottery in those days - agriculture could provide them with ample food supply but it is prone to changes in the weather, sickness and animal infestation).

It is possible that human race spend the first 10,000 studying the Planet and her changing moods, and use that wisdom and knowledge to create permanent settlements 15,000 years later (and these knowledge were recorded verbally). They could likely to choose a place where the water source had came from (Blue Nile for the Egyptians and Himalayan region for the Hindus.

In Hinduism, the modern Human Race started after the Great Flood which destroyed most of the demons which had been populating the World till then. The Vedas were created earlier but were not given to Humans (even so they already existed before the Flood). The Flood came, Maha Vishnu saved human race through his Mastya Avatar and provided the Human race with the Vedas (which was in a single volume) to King Manu, his consort Anusha and the Seven Sages as well as their descendant.

Dzulqarnain

For me, God never gave math in His books
but He gave men wisdom outside of the books
and math is a part of wisdom
- the books were given to His prophet/messenger for their people

Astrology is jz a prediction and the dates and years are not exact
meaning, produced by the astrologer/scribes which is marked from the stars...
In the Quran only mention the word 'age'
- the stories inside mostly to gain lessons of events marked by a prophet/messenger

p/s: My nick is one of them (Qarnain - two ages)

mashimaru83

@Sephiroth
The Sun replied, ” The dog, because today is the end of the year. ” . The dog means the Canis Major or the Mrigasira Nakshatra.

http://www.astrosalon.com/AAPages/seminar_files/nakshatras_detail/mrigasira.html

Mrigasira Nakshatra: Mrigasira Nakshatra extends from after 23°-20′ in Vrsa Rasi up to 6°-40′in Mithune. Presiding deity Chandra. Symbol - Antelope or Deer. The word 'Mriga' represents forests, gardens, a search, a seeking to find, to roam about in forests and a hunter, to seek to blaze the trail, a guide and preceptor. An erotic affair, beauty of the countenance with particular emphasis on the radiant lustre of the face, because of the Moon. To seek as the primary characteristic of the star, to discover hidden treasures after the churning of the Sea, the 'Samudra Manthan' of the Hindu Mythology, the mother, motherly conduct that is to say maternal instincts, self-sacrifice without hope of requital, etc.

How can dog be referred to as Mrigasira Nakshatra?

Sephiroth

by mashimaru83

How can dog be referred to as Mrigasira Nakshatra?

Why not? Even in modern day term, Canis Minor and Canis Major refers to as Big Dog and Little Dog. So why do you question ancient hindus using the same terminology?

Furthermore, dogs have played a larger role in helping humans (when compared to antelopes and deers) in term of guarding the society and hunting. Therefore, I don't see why ancient people could not look at the night sky, see the (same) constellations mentioned above and use the term "dogs" just as modern science today does.


by Dzulqarnain  

For me, God never gave math in His books

So you are saying Al Quran has no such knowledge in it. Very well, noted. Thank you.

mashimaru83

Sephiroth posted on 22-10-2013 09:48 AM
by mashimaru83

@Sephiroth
So why do you question ancient hindus using the same terminology?

You missed my question. Per the link I put before, Mrigasira Nakshatra symbol was Antelope or Deer and not dog. Why did the 'dog' in the original article was referred to as Mrigasira Nakshatra? It's totally not a same terminology.

Sephiroth

mashimaru83 posted on 22-10-2013 01:52 PM
You missed my question. Per the link I put before, Mrigasira Nakshatra symbol was Antelope or Deer ...

Answer this - Which came first? Rasi palan (Indian Astrology) or the Vedas?

What you are talking about is different from what I'm talking. I'm talking in term of Vedic Astronomy and you are referring to the Constellation symbols according to Rasi Palan (Astrology). Symbols does not mean exact thing. In Astronomy, they indicate the two stars in front of the Orion's Belt as Canis Major and Minor.

What the verse meant was, the rain season had started when the Earth had aligned itself with these two stars. Which means when these two stars appear on the horizon at dusk, rainy season will begin.

mashimaru83

Sephiroth posted on 22-10-2013 02:15 PM
Answer this - Which came first? Rasi palan (Indian Astrology) or the Vedas?

What you are talkin ...

@Sephiroth
Answer this - Which came first? Rasi palan (Indian Astrology) or the Vedas?

I don't know what is the purpose of this question. My question was why the 'dog' in the original article was referred to as Mrigasira Nakshatra? On what evidential basis? You said: "I'm talking in term of Vedic Astronomy". Which part of Vedic Astronomy says that 'dog' is also referred to as Mrigasira Nakshatra? Can you produce the evidence?

The Canis Major that you were referring to was one of the 88 modern constellations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canis_Major
I believe it's certainly not from Vedic Astronomy?

Sephiroth

by mashimaru83

Which part of Vedic Astronomy says that 'dog' is also referred to as Mrigasira Nakshatra? Can you produce the evidence?

The part called Siddhanta or Indian Astronomy. FYI Rasi palan (Astrology is not part of this but a separate "science" called Samhita or Mundane astrology where it is used like Feng Shui to predict things. What Hindus today doesn't realize it that they believe that both schools are the same and often mix astronomy with astrology.

Also, Rasi came around 2500 BC (500 years BEFORE the birth of Christ) while uses of Astronomy to predict movements of stars and celestial bodies already recorded in older epics like Ramayana and Mahabratha. Therefore, it is not logical for you to be asking what symbol Astronomy used as I have already placed the dialog of the gods in the first posts.

Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_astronomy

J.A.B. van Buitenen (2008) reports on the calendars in India:

The oldest system, in many respects the basis of the classical one, is known from texts of about 1000 BCE. It divides an approximate solar year of 360 days into 12 lunar months of 27 (according to the early Vedic text Taittirīya Saṃhitā 4.4.10.1–3) or 28 (according to the Atharvaveda, the fourth of the Vedas, 19.7.1.) days. The resulting discrepancy was resolved by the intercalation of a leap month every 60 months. Time was reckoned by the position marked off in constellations on the ecliptic in which the Moon rises daily in the course of one lunation (the period from New Moon to New Moon) and the Sun rises monthly in the course of one year. These constellations (nakṣatra) each measure an arc of 13° 20′ of the ecliptic circle. The positions of the Moon were directly observable, and those of the Sun inferred from the Moon's position at Full Moon, when the Sun is on the opposite side of the Moon. The position of the Sun at midnight was calculated from the nakṣatra that culminated on the meridian at that time, the Sun then being in opposition to that nakṣatra.[10]

These (above) information is taken from a text which is 3,000 years old (1,000 years before birth of Christ). So I'm pretty sure they knew where the Constellations were and what shape it was.

The Canis Major that you were referring to was one of the 88 modern constellations.

I believe it's certainly not from Vedic Astronomy?

For your information, Hindu astronomers have successful predicted the distance between the Sun and the Earth, and that Earth revolved around the Sun and that there are alien planets (Lokam) other than Earth while your forefathers still living in caves and screwing your foremothers.

mashimaru83

Sephiroth posted on 22-10-2013 03:26 PM
by mashimaru83

@Sephiroth
The part called Siddhanta or Indian Astronomy. FYI Rasi palan (Astrology is not part of this but a separate "science" called Samhita or Mundane astrology where it is used like Feng Shui to predict things. What Hindus today doesn't realize it that they believe that both schools are the same and often mix astronomy with astrology.

Also, Rasi came around 2500 BC (500 years BEFORE the birth of Christ) while uses of Astronomy to predict movements of stars and celestial bodies already recorded in older epics like Ramayana and Mahabratha. Therefore, it is not logical for you to be asking what symbol Astronomy used as I have already placed the dialog of the gods in the first posts.

You didn't answer my question. I'm not asking what indian astronomy or what Rasi palan are. And I'm not asking what symbol the Astronomy used. I'm asking on what evidential basis that the 'dog' in the verse that you referred to was referring to Mrigasira Nakshatra. Contrary to that, the 'dog' in the verse can also be referred to as the dog itself and not Mrigasira Nakshatra. That is why I'm asking from you the evidence to show that the 'dog' in the verse is actually referring to Mrigasira Nakhatra. I don't have problem accepting that, but only with a proper evidence. Can you produce the evidence?

@Sephiroth
Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_astronomy
These (above) information is taken from a text which is 3,000 years old (1,000 years before birth of Christ). So I'm pretty sure they knew where the Constellations were and what shape it was.

That doesn't prove that the 'dog' is the Mrigasira Nakshatra. You can say that they see the shape as a 'dog' but that doesn't explain why the 'dog' is Mrigasira Nakshatra?

@Sephiroth
For your information, Hindu astronomers have successful predicted the distance between the Sun and the Earth, and that Earth revolved around the Sun and that there are alien planets (Lokam) other than Earth while your forefathers still living in caves and screwing your foremothers.

Again, please provide the evidence to your claims. And keep your forefathers/foremathers claim to yourself, it has nothing to do with the discussion. Please be nice.

Cuai

Urghhh..berbelit-belit..

Sephiroth

by mashimaru83

Contrary to that, the 'dog' in the verse can also be referred to as the dog itself and not Mrigasira Nakshatra.

Hello, read the verse properly :

The Sun replied, ” The dog, because today is the end of the year. ” .

The Sun said "THE dog" and not A dog. It was not referring to any dogs in the streets or in any house hold. It was referring to the dog in the sky. And since Orion Constellation (Mrigasira) has two leading "dogs" (Canis Major and Canis Minor) in the lead, it is LOGICAL to say that the stars will appear over the horizon at dusk, making the end of the year (and Summer).

You can say that they see the shape as a 'dog' but that doesn't explain why the 'dog' is Mrigasira Nakshatra?

Are you asking me why the Orion constellation has dogs in them??? What kind of question is that?

Again, please provide the evidence to your claims. And keep your forefathers/foremathers claim to yourself, it has nothing to do with the discussion. Please be nice.

Go and read the link I give you. It is useless to talk to retards who cannot read things given to them.

mashimaru83

Sephiroth posted on 23-10-2013 09:51 AM
by mashimaru83

@Sephiroth
Hello, read the verse properly :

Hello, read my question properly.

@Sephiroth
The Sun said "THE dog" and not A dog. It was not referring to any dogs in the streets or in any house hold. It was referring to the dog in the sky. And since Orion Constellation (Mrigasira) has two leading "dogs" (Canis Major and Canis Minor) in the lead, it is LOGICAL to say that the stars will appear over the horizon at dusk, making the end of the year (and Summer).

Again, my main question was not whether is it "THE dog" or "A dog" or "any dog in the streets". I'm asking for the prove that the 'dog' in the verse was actually referring to Mrigasira. Why keep mentioning Canis Major/Canis Minor? There are both from modern constellations. What are their connections to Mrigasira? Which scholars say that the Orion Constellation (Mrigasira) has two leading "dogs"? Do you know what Orion Constellation is?

Please provide proper evidence.

@Sephiroth
Are you asking me why the Orion constellation has dogs in them??? What kind of question is that?

I never asked that. That is a made up question by you and not me. Again, read my question.

@Sephiroth
Go and read the link I give you. It is useless to talk to retards who cannot read things given to them.

Erk... ready to run away? Unfortunately for you, none of the link or your reply prove that "the dog" in the verse was actually referring to Mrigasira. On evidential basis, you don't have any evidence to support your claims. With this, it is safe to assume that the claims in the first post is technically incorrect.

You even used this thread to answer @Truth.8 question: "what proof the hindusim exist??", but since the first post is technically incorrect, I am wondering now about "Hinduism existence"...

Sephiroth

by mashimaru83

Hello, read my question properly.

You ask STUPID question and expecting intelligent answer. It doesn't mean you are intelligent, it just mean you are being stupid.

I'm asking for the prove that the 'dog' in the verse was actually referring to Mrigasira.  

That question, you should ask the Gods, not me. For they are the ones who brought the Vedas and help Mankind interpreted it.

FACTS - Mrigasira refers to Orion Constellation, and Ancient Hindus views the first two stars before the constellation (Canis Major and Canis Minor) as two "dogs". FULL STOP. This is the interpretation which have been used for centuries, even millinieums. Just because you don't approve, the constellations will not change nor will history. TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.

I never asked that.

You ask STUPID question and that is just one of those STUPID questions you ask.

On evidential basis, you don't have any evidence to support your claims. With this, it is safe to assume that the claims in the first post is technically incorrect.

IF that is your assumptions, I have nothing further to say to you or your foolish assumptions.

ct_og

Al-Quran itu keajaipan... sesiapa yang nak tahu tentang kajaipannya kenalah kaji dia... walaupun dalam al-Quran tidak disebutkan tarikh.. namun banyak cerita-cerita Allah yang menyebut sesuatu peristiwa secara terpeinci... jika manusia nak tahu tentang bilakah peristiwa itu berlaku maka kajilah dengan terperinci... bagi kami cukuplah  kami tahu kronologi peristiwa itu berlaku tanpa tarikhnya yang tepat... jika orang tu kata dia tahu tarikh sesuatu itu berlaku dahulu maka adakah sesiapa yang dapat membuktikan apa yang dikatakan itu benar?.

Sephiroth

by ct_og

.. bagi kami cukuplah  kami tahu kronologi peristiwa itu berlaku tanpa tarikhnya yang tepat... jika orang tu kata dia tahu tarikh sesuatu itu berlaku dahulu maka adakah sesiapa yang dapat membuktikan apa yang dikatakan itu benar?

Orang dulu2 spt pada masa Muhammad tak mungkin dapat menbuktikan bahawa tarikh yg diberikan dlm sesuatu kitab itu betul atau tidak, kerana mereka tak ada pengetahuan yg tinggi mengenai sejarah. Akan tetapi mereka2 yg hidup di zaman ini, mereka boleh menbuktikannya menerusi pelbagai cara saintifik - termasuk Carbon Dating.

Sejarah itu mustahak kerana ianya mengambarkan hayat zuriat manusia di atas muka bumi ini, dari mana kita datang, arah mana kita pergi dan arah manakah destinasi kita sekarang. Kalau Sejarah tak penting, apasal orang Islam menyambut Maul rasul dan Hari keputeraan Muhammad? Bukan kah itu juga penanda hari yg bersejarah dlm masyarakat Islam?

ct_og

Tarikh peristiwa itu kita boleh tahu bila manusia telah mencatatkannya... dalam ISlam pun ada catatan sebegitu... tapi nak membuktikan tarikh peristiwa yang telah berlaku beribu-ribu atau berjuta tahun sebelum manusia ujud, maka tak ada yang tahu bukan?

Sephiroth

ct_og posted on 24-10-2013 09:58 AM
Tarikh peristiwa itu kita boleh tahu bila manusia telah mencatatkannya... dalam ISlam pun ada catata ...

Siapa cakap pasal sesuatu yg berlaku berjuta2 tahun yg lalu? Saya tengah bercakap mengenai apa yg berlaku di dalam hayat species manusia itu sendiri.

Cuba bayangkan senario ini. Katakan esok lusa tiba2 elektrik tak ada di dunia ini. Semuanya gelap gelita. Tak ada internet, tak ada radio, tak ada TV dan tak ada apa2 mesin. Mungkin buku2 yg ada sekarang (termasuk Al Quran kamu itu) bertahan seratus tahun, mungkin dua ratus tahun. Kemudian apa jadi? Kamu kena bergantung kpd kebolehan manusia menghafal buku2 spt Al Quran. Kamu kena bergantung kpd keyakinan bahawa setengah pihak itu tidak akan mengubah Al Quran kamu itu. Dan mungkin 500 tahun yg akan datang, Muhammad kamu itu akan menjadi seorang mythical, macam karektor dlm cerita 1001 malam. Semuanya kerana kamu tak dapat meletakan fakta sejarah di dalam fakta2 yg kamu ingati tersebut.

Itupun kalau dunia ini masih aman dan manusia mampu hidup tanpa bermusuhan. Kalau kamu jumpa musuh yg mahu menakluki kamu tanpa menumpahkan darah ataupun menbazirkan wang ringgit mereka, macam mana? Mereka boleh datang kpd kamu, dan berikan kamu ajaran bahawa Muhammad itu hanya karektor dlm cerita dongeng yg digelar Islam dan bahawanya kamu ini tak pernah ada tuhan, dan kamu kena ikut mereka supaya menjadi manusia yg lebih "civilised".

Adakah kamu fikir senario ini satu khayalan aku semata2? Untuk pengetahuan anda, inilah apa yang telah berlaku di India sejak 250 tahun yg lalu bila orang barat datang menakluki India dan menpesong agama Hindu.

mashimaru83

Sephiroth posted on 24-10-2013 09:12 AM
by mashimaru83

@Sephiroth
FACTS - Mrigasira refers to Orion Constellation, and Ancient Hindus views the first two stars before the constellation (Canis Major and Canis Minor) as two "dogs". FULL STOP. This is the interpretation which have been used for centuries, even millinieums. Just because you don't approve, the constellations will not change nor will history. TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.

Fact has to be based on evidential basis. So far, you haven't put forward the evidence. Let's take a look at what I found:

http://www.prokerala.com/astrology/nakshatra/mrigashirsha-nakshatra.php

Mrigashirsha nakshatra which is the fifth nakshatra according to the Hindu astronomical beliefs is the same as the constellation "orion". This constellation is visible throughout the world and is one of the most conspicuous star formations in the night sky. The formation resembles that of a hunter.

Now let's take a look at orio constellation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(constellation)

It was named after Orion, a hunter in Greek mythology.

Yes, it's a "hunter" and not "the dog" per your claim. Based on this finding, it is safe to assume that the claims in the first post is technically incorrect. Thus, the BCE years that you came up with is pretty much questionable or can I say they are completely wrong?

ct_og

Sephiroth posted on 24-10-2013 02:39 PM
Siapa cakap pasal sesuatu yg berlaku berjuta2 tahun yg lalu? Saya tengah bercakap mengenai apa yg  ...

Al-Quran akan tetap terpelihara hingga dunia nak kiamat. Kami tak pernah risau akan al-Quran bila Allah sendiri yang memberi jamin bahawa Dia sendiri yang akan menjaga sama ada dari segi ketulinan isi kandungnya mahupun keujudannya. Setiap kali ada orang bukan Islam mahu mengubah isikandungnya maka akan terserlahlah tipu daya mereka. Malah kalau tersalah cetak pun, segera diperbetulkan kesalahannya.

Walau kamu tak percaya al-Quran tapi kami percaya bila Allah berkata : "Sesungguhnya Kamilah yang menurunkan Al-Quran, dan Kamilah yang memelihara dan menjaganya."

Begitu jua dengan Nabi Muhammad saw... agamanya tetap tulin sehingga hari hampir kiamat.. kiamat terjadi apabila orang ramai dah tak ingat Allah dan melupakan ajaran Nabi Muhammad saw...  sebelum tiba waktu itu.. Islam tetap asli seperti yang diizinkan Allah...