WE HAVE TO PERSEVERE PATIENTLY & GUARD AGAINST EVIL

a translational problem yet again eh??  nice one.

how about

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" Jn 17:5


i suppose you have a problem with the word 'world' here as well.
or maybe the chapter of john is totally mis-translated.

[ Last edited by whitepig on 24-1-2004 at 06:36 PM ]

The Islamic View

As does the Bible, the Qur’an says that Jesus was born without the aid of a human father. This does not imply, however, that Jesus was divine; it simply shows that God, who established the laws of Nature in the first place, is equally able to suspend them at will.

If Jesus were actually God's son, "...he would be a sharer in the Godhead and of Divine nature himself, and in that case, God would have simultaneously begotten, been begotten, been born, lived as a human being, and died" .

This is a notion too ludicrous for consideration.

Islam stands firmly behind the belief Jesus was only a human prophet, divinely inspired by God:

To say that he was a god besmacks of polytheism, which goes against the concept of the Oneness of God:

4:171



"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs."

A doctrine that has its roots in paganism and also goes against the concept of One God has no place in a religion which claims to be monotheistic.

>>>the Qur抋n says that Jesus was born without the aid of a human father. This does not imply, however, that Jesus was divine; it simply shows that God, who established the laws of Nature in the first place, is equally able to suspend them at will.

If Jesus were actually God's son, "...he would ....<<<<<<<<<<<<<


well that is the crux isn't it.. we take precedence of the bible over the quran. the quran is your book and the bible is ours. Even the quran admonishes you to read the bible & consult the people of the book.

we are open.. when would u like to consult us?

Three In One?

Simply put, the Doctrine of the Trinity states that the Godhead is comprised of three divine beings: God the Father, Jesus the son, and the Holy Spirit. Along with belief in Jesus, the doctrine of the trinity is one of the most fundamental principles of Christianity upon which the rest of Christian doctrines are based

The Concept of Monotheism

Webster's New World Dictionary defines monotheism as "the belief or doctrine that there is only one God."

The religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam all claim to share this concept. It was stressed by Moses in a Biblical passage known as the "Shema", or the Jewish creed of faith:

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Approximately 1500 years later, it was repeated word-for-word by Jesus when he said:

"...the first of all the commandments is, 'Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord'" (Mark 12:29)

When Prophet Muhammad came along approximately 600 years after Jesus, he brought the same message yet again when he said:

2:163



"And your Allah is One Allah. There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful."

Christianity has digressed from the concept of Oneness of God, however, in their vague and mysterious doctrine of the trinity. How can God be One when you add Jesus and the Holy Spirit to the picture?

The Influence of Paul and His Gentile Audience

Although this is one doctrine that was not formally proposed by Paul, there can be no doubt that he had such a doctrine in mind: after all, if he made Jesus a divine son, it stands to reason that a divine father was needed; accommodations were also called for in order to account for the Holy Spirit, who Paul believed to be the vehicle for bringing God's revelations to man. In essence, Paul named the principle players, but it wasn't until the fourth century that the Church put the whole thing together.

As was the case with other doctrines proposed for Christianity by Paul, a trinity of divine beings also had its roots in pagan beliefs. The cult of Nimrod, first begun in Babylon, was still alive and well in Paul's world: Nimrod, a handsome young man who had married his mother, was looked upon as a god among his people; they believed that Baal, the sun god, was his father. Upon his death at a fairly young age, Nimrod's mother became head of the cult and she put forth the idea that her son continued to survive as a spirit. Thus, the first trinity came into being: Baal, the divine father, Nimrod's mother, and Nimrod the divine son. It is most likely from this legend that Paul drew his idea of a trinity of divine beings for Christianity.

Trinity In the Bible

There are only two references in the Bible to a trinity of divine beings, and both are VAGUE  at best:

1) The first reference is found in Matthew 28:19. Here, Jesus tells his disciples:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".

There are some problems with this verse, however:

a) While it does make mention of the three persons later put into the Christian trinity, it says nothing about the three persons being part of one divine being;

b) In looking at another account of this same event -- "the Great Commission"-- in Mark 16:15, Jesus says:

"Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature".

Where did the extra words come from that we find in Matthew's account?

c) Baptism in the early Church was done only in the name of Jesus, as affirmed by Paul in his various epistles.

2) The second reference is found in I John 5:7, where we read:

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one".

While this is a clearer reference to a trinity of divine beings, Biblical scholars admitted in the 19th century that the words "the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost" are interpolations -- text not found in the oldest existing copies of the Bible -- and these words are subsequently not found in Bibles of today.

Other than these two verses -- one which is vague, the other an admitted addition to Biblical text -- there are NO other references OF ANY KIND in the Bible to a trinity.

In short, the idea of a trinity in Christianity -- God the Father, Jesus the son, and the Holy Spirit as the being who guides mankind -- was never put forth by Jesus or any prophet before him.

The roots of such a doctrine were already present in paganism, however, not to mention the fact that, during the course of his preaching, Paul had put forth the components needed to form a trinity in Christianity. All that remained was for later Church scholars to put the whole thing together, passing off what was strictly a man-made doctrine as a fundamental Christian belief.

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 26-1-2004 at 06:55 PM ]

Early Christianity


Tertullian, a lawyer and presbyter of the Church in Carthage, was the first to use the word "trinity" during the 3rd century when he put forth the theory that the son and the spirit participate in the being of God, but all are of one being of substance with the Father.

Controversy over the matter raged for years among the higher leaders of the church: some agreed with Tertullian that the trinity consisted of three distinct persons or essences, while others claimed it to be merely a trinity of revelation -- that Jesus was a man who was inspired by the spirit of the Father which dwelled within him.

Emperor Constantine found himself drawn into the fray in 318 C.E. When the controversy over the trinity began to rage between two churchmen from Alexandria: Arius, the deacon, and Alexander, his bishop.


The Council of Nicea


Unsure of church dogma but sure in the knowledge that a unified church was necessary for a strong kingdom, Constantine tried to negotiate a settlement between the two men. When his bishop failed to resolve the matter, Constantine called for the first ecumenical council in Church history, which met in 325 C.E. at Nicea.

300 bishops attended; after six weeks' of work, the doctrine of the trinity was formulated. The God of the Christians was now seen as having three essences -- or natures -- in the form of father, son, and holy spirit.

The doctrine hammered out by the Council stated: "...we worship one God in trinity, and trinity in unity...for there is one person of the father, another of the son, and another of the holy spirit...they are not three Gods, but one God...the whole three persons are co-eternal and co-equal...he therefore that will be saved must thus think of the trinity..."

The matter was far from settled, however, despite high hopes for such on the part of Constantine. Arius and the new bishop of Alexandria, a man named Athanasius, began arguing over the matter even as the Nicene Creed was being signed; "Arianism" became a catch-word from that time onward for anyone who didn't hold to the doctrine of the trinity.


Written In Stone

In 451 C.E., at the Council of Chalcedon, the Nicene/Constantinople Creed was set as authoritative.

Debate on the matter was no longer tolerated; to speak out against the trinity was now considered blasphemy, and such earned stiff sentences that ranged from mutilation to death.

Christians now turned on Christians, maiming and slaughtering thousands because of a difference of opinion.

Although the brutal punishments of earlier times have now ended, the controversy over the doctrine of the trinity continues even today.

Undaunted, however, the majority of Christians continue to stand firm behind this fundamental tenet of their faith.


Rational or Irrational?

The doctrine of the trinity may be a fundamental tenet of Christianity, but it has absolutely no Scriptural basis -- it is entirely man-made in origin. It is yet another example of how pagan beliefs were pulled into the dogma of Christianity in order to make it more palatable to a pagan people.

The majority of Christians, when asked to explain this doctrine, can offer nothing more than "I believe it because I was told to do so":re:. They explain it away as a "mystery" -- yet the Bible says, in I Corinithians 14:33 that "...God is not the author of confusion...".:re:

Even the very author of this doctrine had problems with its comprehension: it is said that Athanasius, the bishop who formulated the doctrine of the trinity, confessed that the more he wrote on the matter, the less capable he was of expressing his thoughts clearly regarding it.:2cool:

The Islamic View

While Christianity may have a problem defining the essence of God, such is not the case in Islam:

5:73




"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."

_____________________

American Muslim author Suzanne Haneef puts the matter quite succinctly when she says "...God is not like a pie or an apple which can be divided into three thirds which form one whole; if God is three persons or possesses three parts, He is assuredly not the Single, Unique, Invisible Being which God is..."

Looking at it from another angle: the trinity has God being three separate entities -- the father, the son and the holy spirit. If God is the father and also the son, He would then be the father of Himself because He is His own son.:re:

This is not exactly logical...

Christianity claims to be a monotheistic religion. By setting up a trinity of divine beings, however, there is no doubt in the mind of the Muslim that Christianity has lost the idea of worshipping just One God. They have moved away from monotheism into polytheism because they no longer worship One God -- they worship three.

This is a charge not taken lightly by Christians. They, in turn, accuse the Muslims of not even knowing what the trinity is, claiming that the Qur'an sets it up as Allah the father, Jesus the son, and Mary his mother.

While veneration of Mary has been a figment of the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title "Mother of God" by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verses in the Qur'an most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation shows that designation of Mary by the Qur'an as a "member" of the trinity is simply not true.

While the Qur'an condemns both Trinitarianism (4: 171;5:73) and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (5: 116), nowhere does the Qur'an identify the actual three components of the Christian trinity. The position of the Qur'an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine is not the issue; the issue is that the very notion of a trinity is an affront against the Oneness of God.

There is no place in monotheism for any other being to be worshipped but God, and on this the Qur'an stands firm:

2:163



"And your Allah is One Allah. There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful."

21:92


"Verily, this brotherhood of yours is a single brotherhood, and I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore serve Me (and no other)."

One Death To Absolve All

Simply put, the Doctrine of Atonement states that Jesus suffered and died upon the cross in order to free man from the yoke of sin.

The Concept of the Original Sin

Paul may have been a tentmaker by trade, but he was a shrewd man, as evidenced by the way he built up a convoluted system of belief for salvation in Christianity.

This is best seen in this Doctrine of Atonement, a creed that every other creed --- that of the divinity of Jesus, the trinity and salvation by faith --depend completely upon for substance.

In the eyes of Paul, mankind is a race of wrongdoers, a dubious distinction that all have inherited from Adam and his sin in the eating of the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden. This "original sin" has tainted all of mankind since Adam; because of this taint of sin, man cannot serve as his own redeemer. Jesus could serve in this capacity as he was not conceived through the seed of a man.

Although logically a great injustice to both God and mankind, Christianity has heartily endorsed this doctrine of Original Sin in order to justify their concept of the mission of Jesus, that of atonement for the sins of mankind.

In putting forth this doctrine of original sin, Paul seems to have overlooked God's words in Ezekial 18:20-22:

"...the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son..."


The Ultimate Sacrifice

According to Paul, mankind's redeemer came in the form of Jesus: God sent His only son to earth so that he would endure pain and death on the cross in order that the shedding of his blood would atone for the sins of mankind.

Jesus was the sacrificial victim. Paul recalled the sacrifices offered up by the Jews to God in the Old Testament, and somehow decided that these sacrifices were done in order to receive God's forgiveness for the sins of the people.:re:

While some of the sacrifices offered by the early Jews WERE done for atonement purposes, the prophets who came along later on said to forget about doing this sort of thing. In Hosea 6:6, for example, we read:

"For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice".

God wanted love -- which comes down to faith in Him and obedience to His Law -- rather than blood.

Jesus himself reiterated this message once again in Matthew 9:13, where we read:

"Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, and not sacrifice."

Paul set all this aside, however, saying that Jesus, a perfect being, became the "ultimate sacrifice" when he gave up his life on the cross.

Paul's theory was that God cannot he considered just unless He punishes the sinner. Repentance alone simply cannot bring about the justification "necessary" for sins committed. Atonement, he says, is necessary because the honor, justice, holiness and righteousness of God cannot be satisfied by "mere" repentance. To a Christian, Jesus "reconciled" men to God through his death.

Christian author Anis Shorrosh took a closer look at this matter several years ago, and he concluded that there is nothing of atonement in confession and repentance; who is going to pay for our sins?

Through the whole business of saying God demanded the life of Jesus in payment for the sins of mankind, Paul took the concept of a God who loves and cares for His creatures, and made Him into a very stern and distant being that nothing short of blood sacrifice will reach.

A God of love

A theme first instituted by Paul -- and one which surfaces again and again in Christianity, especially in regards to Jesus -- is that of God's love.

According to the Christian, God's love is behind the crucifixion and death of Jesus -- the symbol of God's love is the cross, they say. According to their way of thinking, God so loved us that He sent Jesus and caused him to suffer and die in order to save mankind from his sins.

Can God Die?:stp:

Getting around the confusing idea that the God of the Christians will only forgive a host of smaller sins by way of a bigger sin -- that of murder -- there is the more compelling matter of divinity in question here --- God is an eternal being -- has always been, will always be. He was not created; He cannot die.

If Jesus is the son of God, as Christians claim, this would make him a god, also; how could he, as a god, die on the cross as they claim him to have done?

If his "human component" took over at the time of his death, this would mean that he died as any other man in which case, the whole doctrine of atonement has no basis -- the blood of a man cannot atone for the sins of anyone else.

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 28-1-2004 at 11:04 AM ]

The Pagan Influence

Paul misread the purpose of sacrifices by the Jews in the Old Testament: they were done to show gratitude to God for the bounty He blessed them with -- not to ensure God's forgiveness for sin.

Nearly all pagan religions, however, truly believe that sacrifices made to their gods would ensure forgiveness of sin. Plants, animals and even humans were killed to ensure this " divine favor".

Not only that, but nearly all pagan religions carry with them some sort of a rite wherein its adherents partake of consecrated food, primarily bread and wine. Pagans believed that, by eating these consecrated foods, they were sharing in their god's attributes and powers--his spirit would then dwell within them.

Paul carried this pagan concept over into Christianity, calling it the Sacrament of the Last Supper, or the Eucharist. Considered to be a big part of the doctrine of atonement, this ceremony has now become one of the most important sacraments in Christianity because it symbolizes Jesus giving his own flesh and blood as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

The doctrine of atonement did not present much of a problem to Paul's Gentile converts to Christianity, since the idea of a god dying young and coming back to life in order to save his people was present in their pagan backgrounds anyway. If Adonis or Mithras had done this sort of thing for them before they converted, why not have Jesus do it now?

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 28-1-2004 at 11:23 AM ]

What Did Paul Accomplish?

The Gentiles were once again placated: they had their redeemers in their old religions, and Paul nicely provided them with one in their new faith, also. He told them that all they had to do to ensure that God would forgive their sins was to believe that Jesus died for those sins; that was all there was to it.

In Jewish law, the elements of atonement consist of Divine mercy, repentance and a sincere effort to do good; blood sacrifice did not have a thing to do with it. In his attempts to win over the Gentiles, however, Paul reinterpreted Old Testament scriptures and gave the new Christians their redeemer  -- a man who sacrifices his life for others.

The Christians of today no longer have that closeness to paganism that was present in the time of Paul. His doctrine of atonement has become one that current Christians are often at loss to adequately explain, having found the whole matter to be quite confusing when the forces of logic and theology come into play within their minds.

The Islamic View

Muslims take this Christian doctrine one part at a time:

1) The Concept of the Original Sin.

The Christian doctrine of Original Sin has no place in Islam, as Muslims believe that man is born pure free of sin.

In the Qur'an, God says:

30:30


"So set thou thy face steadily and truly to the Faith: (establish) Allah's handiwork according to the pattern on which He has made mankind: no change (let there be) in the work (wrought) by Allah; that is the standard Religion, but most among mankind understand not."

This verse tells us that God created man good, in a natural state of purity; that is, with a natural tendency towards submission to the will and law of God.

Sin is not hereditary: it is something that man brings upon himself when he does things he should not and or does not that which he should. To say that each of us comes into the world saddled with a burden of sin that had been committed by a very remote ancestor is nothing short of denying God's attributes of justice and mercy.

Although God has endowed man with the faculties to make choices in life, man is a finite creature with finite natures and capabilities.

External forces -- that of good and evil -- shape the outcome of our nature, not something that was done in the past by a far distant relative. What we ultimately make of ourselves will be taken into account by God on the Day of Judgment; during this life, He gives us every chance possible. We are, in ourselves, pretty much the architects of our own destiny.

This is because the Muslim believes that God forgave Adam for his disobedience (Qur'an 2: 36,37)

God forgave Adam, and subsequently removed any stigma of sin that the Christians claim to be inherited by mankind from the time of Adam onward.

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 28-1-2004 at 11:58 PM ]

>>>>This is because the Muslim believes that God forgave Adam for his disobedience (Qur'an 2: 36,37)<<<<


again - quite contrary to our belief.

because of that sin MAN lost 3 things

* below - the earth. pestilence. plant disease. weeds. rogue elements -eg. hurricanes, flood & .... avian flu?

* self - child birth pangs/pains. body degeneration. diseases. aging. Physical death! and the lawlessness in society.

*above - lost the red phone to the creator 'upstairs'.

If Adam's sin was forgiven - why should man continue to live like 'animals'?



>>>The Christian doctrine of Original Sin has no place in Islam, as Muslims believe that man is born pure free of sin.
<<<

untrue. the ability to sin is innate. nowadays even a child of 7 or 8 can commit murder. no one ,not one, is born pure. The ability to sin is human nature.

[ Last edited by whitepig on 29-1-2004 at 08:34 AM ]

Central to the Doctrine of Atonement is Paul's notion that mankind is a race of wrong-doers, having inherited from Adam his sin in the eating of the forbidden fruit. As a result of this Original Sin, man cannot serve as his own redeemer; good works are to no avail, says Paul, for even these cannot satisfy the justice of God (Gal. 2:16).

As a result of Adam's sin, man is doomed to die. By his death, however, Jesus took on the punishment due to man; through his resurrection, Jesus conquered death, and righteousness was restored. To earn salvation, a Christian need only have faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus (Rom. 6:23).

Despite its prominent place in Christianity, the notion of an "original sin" is not found among the teachings of any prophet, Jesus included. In the Old Testament, God says:

"...the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ez.18:20-22).

Personal responsibility is also stressed in the Qur'an where God says:

53:38


"Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another;"

53:39


"That man can have nothing but what he strives for;"

The doctrine of original sin gave Paul the means to justify pagan influence in his scheme of salvation. Irresponsibility became the hallmark of Christianity through this doctrine, however, for by "transferring" sins onto Jesus, Christians assume no responsibility for their actions.


Salvation in Islam

By the seventh century, God Almighty chose to send his last messenger Muhammmad (peace be upon him) to set things straight once and for all for mankind, as the man-made Christianity was so embellished that it came to be perceived to be more than its man-made origin.

Since God is Almighty, He doesn't need the charade concocted by Christians in order to forgive man.

In the Qur'an, God says we are all created in a state of goodness (Qur'an 30:30); He has not burdened man with any "original sin", having forgiven Adam and Eve (2:36-38; 7:23,24) as He forgives us (11:90; 39:53-56).

Thus did Islam seek to restore the true meaning to monotheism, for in the Qur'an God asks:

4:125


"Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? ..."

41:33


"Who is better in speech than one who calls (men) to Allah, works righteousness, and says, "I am of those who bow in Islam"? "

The Religion of Man

The evidence is overwhelming that the concept of salvation in Christianity -- its Doctrine of Vicarious Atonement -- came not from God but from man via pagan rituals and beliefs.

Paul effectively shifted the center of worship away from God by saying that Jesus was the divine agent of their salvation (Gal. 2:20). In so doing, however, Paul set aside all teachings of God's prophets, and even the concept of monotheism itself, since God in Christianity needs Jesus for His divine "helper".

Take a Closer Look

With his very salvation at stake here, the Christian should take a closer look at what he believes in and why.

God says in the Qur'an:

4:171

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs."
__________________________

The Death of Jesus

As for the death of Jesus upon the cross ... although it is clear that Jesus -- as did the prophets before him -- suffered for the cause of trying to bring God's Word to a people who were not too interested, and that he was well aware this would happen to him, he does not go so far as to say he would be killed -- especially for the purpose that Paul later attributed to him, that of saving mankind from sin.

In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus fervently prays for God to "let this cup pass from me" (Matthew 26:39) where "this cup" refers to his capture and death. Are we to believe that a devoted servant of God would pray for mercy and not receive it?:re:

The whole idea of atonement for mankind through the death of Jesus comes across as a rather illogical concept, totally out of character with the idea of a just God.

Would a just God be unwilling to forgive Adam -- and all mankind after him -- for his sins until Jesus came along? Would a just God both demand and allow the humiliation and murder of one of His most dedicated prophets? Would a just God force one man to pay for the sins of another?

In Islam, we think not.

If one looks at this from the angle of God's love for mankind, the same arguments for a God of Justice also prevail:

Would a God of love punish all of mankind until Jesus came along? Would a God of love demand the dreadful humiliation and death of one of His most beloved and dedicated servants?

One can only wonder just what TYPE of love would demand such a high and terrible price.

Islam stands firm behind the theory of personal responsibility: each person is responsible for his/her own wrongdoings. It is inconceivable that a just God would hold one person responsible for the sins of another:

6:164


Say: "Shall I seek for (my) Cherisher other than Allah, when He is the Cherisher of all things (that exist)? Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself: no bearer of burdens can bear the burdens of another. Your goal in the end is towards Allah. He will tell you the truth of the things wherein ye disputed."

No man can nor will be punished for the sins of another.

God tells us that He will reward and or punish each man on what that man alone has done in his life:

2:286


"On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray): "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 30-1-2004 at 11:02 AM ]

Fuzzman

Thank you Kennkid for your interesting article. Albeit long but very enriching to those having an interest in Islam. I like the way you set up your thoughts and then proceed to filter them out into words in proper text,  fonts, highlights, paragraphing, footnotes and chapters. Sure you aren't some kind of Goverment think-tank scholar on Islamic issues?  Anyway thanks for all your hardwork, that would of course lead to hard reading by us all, enriching us all along the way. You are a jewel in RF and that is a fact brother. Keep up the good fight for a good cause. Make us all vigilant all the way my brother. With this I asks of my Father to enrich you with immeasurable longetivity, unbreakable prosperity, abundance of great food, continous peace and family harmony and a very clear and powerful vigilant mind that defeats anti-Moslems propaganda. And from us - just thank you for being you. Allah loves you and that is a fact. I know.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 31-1-2004 at 10:37 AM ]

Originally posted by Fuzzman at 31-1-2004 10:34 AM:
Thank you Kennkid for your interesting article. Albeit long but very enriching to those having an interest in Islam. I like the way you set up your thoughts and then proceed  ...

All praise be to Allah alone my dear brother Fuzzman.

May you also be blessed with the strength & steadfastness of faith and everlasting love of The Almighty and may His blessings be always showered upon the souls of our beloved Prophet Muhammad and all the messengers & prophets of God before him & the faithful who have departed from this station on earth.

And to you & all my Muslim brothers & sisters in this forum too....May your Eidul Adha be full of piety & sacrifice and may they be received as ibadah by the Almighty.

Baiduri Othman

Wish a Happy Aidil Adha to all the Muslims here incl. you Kennkid & also Fuzzman, Jukebox, Amorist, Agul, Kid, Lost Soul & the rest of the team. Thanks for this thread Kennkid! I even save this thread for future reference.

The sacrfice for His sustenance

22:34


"To every people did We appoint rites (of sacrifice), that they might celebrate the name of Allah over the sustenance He gave them from animals (fit for food). But your Allah is One Allah. Submit then your wills to Him (in Islam): and give thou the good news to those who humble themselves".

22:35

"To those whose hearts when Allah is mentioned, are filled with fear, who show patient perseverance over their afflictions, keep up regular prayer, and spend (in charity) out of what We have bestowed upon them."

22:36


"The sacrificial camels we have made for you as among the symbols from Allah. In them is (much) good for you: then pronounce the name of Allah over them as they line up (for sacrifice): when they are down on their sides (after slaughter), eat ye thereof, and feed such as (beg not but) live in contentment, and such as beg with due humility: thus have We made animals subject to you, that ye may be grateful. "

22:37


"It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah. it is your piety that reaches Him: He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right."

As such, Islam does not believe that Jesus was killed. In the Qur'an, we read:

4:157


"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not".

4:158


"Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise".


In short, the Christian doctrine of atonement as a means of forgiving sin has no place in Islam. Muslims believe that God desires only sincere repentance on the part of mankind


11.90


"But ask forgiveness of your Lord, and turn unto Him (in repentance): For my Lord is indeed full of mercy and loving-kindness."

Originally posted by Baiduri Othman at 2004-1-31 06:32 PM:
Wish a Happy Aidil Adha to all the Muslims here incl. you Kennkid & also Fuzzman, Jukebox, Amorist, Agul, Kid, Lost Soul & the rest of the team. Thanks for this thread Kennkid ...

Same wish to you too sister and salam too to all...Jukebox, Wondering2, MENJ, Amorist, Darsita, Lost Soul, Kid, Agul and all.

ALLAHuAKBAR, ALLAHuAKBAR ALLAHuAKBAR

Salam

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 31-1-2004 at 06:42 PM ]

Salvation comes from God alone:

God revealed through his final messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) that salvation comes from Him (God) alone.

28:67


"But any that (in this life) had repented, believed, and worked righteousness, will have hopes to be among those who achieve salvation."

If we believe in God, surrendering ourselves completely to Him and following His Guidance, we can be assured of His Grace and Mercy towards us. As seen in the verse above, if repentance on our part is sincere, God can and does forgive our sins. [color=blackThere is no need for an intercessor, as each of us has direct access to God at all times. In short, there is no need for a savior: God Alone can handle it all.

Christianity's 'Saved By Faith Alone'

The Doctrine of Salvation in Christianity, on the other hand,  states that man is saved by having faith in the idea that Jesus died for the sins of all mankind.

This doctrine was actually paul's way of  appeasing the Gentiles:

There was still the matter of what happens after death. All prophets taught of the bliss of heaven and the horrors of hell; Jesus was no exception. Paul's new converts worried about this, too. They wanted to know just how they could ensure themselves a place in heaven when the world finally came to an end.

Jewish Law taught that salvation was attained through obedience of that Law. The Gentiles, however, were not happy with this idea. They complained to Paul that the Law was too strict for them, and Paul handled this in a unique way by saying that obedience to the Law was no longer necessary:

"..no man is justified by the Law in the sight of God...and the Law is not of faith...Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law..." (Galatians 3:11-13)

While the Law alerted man to what was right and what was wrong, Paul said that the coming of Jesus had abrogated obedience to it as a means of salvation:

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law." (Romans 3:28)

Despite the fact that Jesus himself had said that he came not to destroy the Law but to fulfil it (Matthew 5:17), Paul threw it all out, saying that only faith in Jesus was necessary for salvation. According to Paul, the coming of Jesus, and his sacrifice of his life for the sins of mankind, put an end to the need for following God's Law in order to attain salvation. Only faith in this "saving power":re: of Jesus was now necessary.
Salvation (Christian style) was no longer based on the manner of life one led or the good deeds that one performed, but on the faith that one had (not faith in the true God, but faith in the idea that Jesus died for the sins of all mankind). Therefore, no matter how you lead your life, no matter what bad deeds on your part to God, to yourself and to mankind, you are sinless, because you believe that Jesus already died for your sins.:stp:


[ Last edited by KENNKID on 3-2-2004 at 10:01 AM ]

The Curse of the Law

Paul had another reason for taking the stand he did on God's Law. In Deuteronomy 21:23, God tells Moses that a man who is "hanged upon a tree" -- in other words, one who is crucified -- is " accursed of God".

In order to get around this, Paul simply decided:re: that the Law itself was a curse:

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse...Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having itself become a curse for us. For it is written, 'Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree

Truth.8

u think i hve time to read ur bull shit things. NO