Manu was the name of the First King of Hindus. In Christianity/Islam context, he is equivalent to Noah. He was given the Laws by Maha Vishnu who saved him, his family, his subjects and 7 other Sages after the great Flood. Humans today are their descendant.
the forummer by name above claimed Manu was first king....is that true? any evidence to support? books? scriptures??
secondly the forummer says Manu received law from Vishnu....is that true? from my understanding, Manu, received law from Bhrama...
the forummer by name above claimed Manu was first king....is that true? any evidence to support? books? scriptures??
Yes, two books - Manusmitri which states the Laws of Manu (as it was given to him by Lord Vishnu) and Mahabratha Epic (collection of orally given records of Hindu history since the beginning of time (when Man first walked the Earth). GO and READ it online.
from my understanding, Manu, received law from Bhrama...
Yes, two books - Manusmitri which states the Laws of Manu (as it was given to him by Lord Vishnu) and Mahabratha Epic (collection of orally given records of Hindu history since the beginning of time (when Man first walked the Earth). GO and READ it online.
meaning vishnu is preserver and bharma is creator...hence the law given to manu by vishnu???
Your understanding BASED ON WHAT?
how you explain this:
In one kalpa, or one day of Brahma, fourteen Manus are manifest. One day of Brahma is calculated at 4 billion 320 million years, and Brahma lives for one hundred years on this scale. Thus if fourteen Manus appear in one day of Brahma, there are 420 Manus during one month of Brahma, and during one year of Brahma there are 5,040 Manus. Since Brahma lives for one hundred of his years, it is calculated that there are 504,000 Manus manifest during the lifetime of one Brahma. Since there are innumerable universes, no one can imagine the totality of the manvantara incarnations. Because all the universes are produced simultaneously by the exhalation of the Maha-Vishnu, no one can begin to calculate how many Manus are manifest at one time. Each Manu, however, is called by a different name. The first Manu is called Svayambhuva, and he is the son of Brahma. The second Manu, Svarocisha, is the son of the predominating deity of fire. The third Manu is Uttama, and he is the son of King Priyavrata. The fourth Manu, Tamasa, is the brother of Uttama. The fifth Manu, called Raivata, and the sixth Manu, Cakshusha, are both brothers of Tamasa, but Cakshusha is the son of Cakshu. The seventh Manu is called Vaivasvata, and he is the son of the sun-god. The eighth Manu is called Savarni, and he is also a son of the sun-god, born of a wife named Chaya. The ninth Manu, Dakshasavarni, is the son of Varuna. The tenth Manu, Brahmasavarni, is the son of Upasloka. Four other Manus are known as Rudrasavarni, Dharmasavarni, Devasavarni and Indrasavarni.
meaning vishnu is preserver and bharma is creator...hence the law given to manu by vishnu???
The Perserver's duty is to Preserve Law and Order of the Realm. The Creator's duty is to create what is required by the Realm - which includes its Laws. The Laws of Manu was created by Lord Brahma but was given to Manu by Maha Vishnu.
how you explain this:
Where is the Source by which you quote this? Paste the source link here first. I will look it over.
Also, explain WHAT? What is your question? What is there to explain? I said King Manu (a single person) and the ones you quoted were a group of Manus which could mean either the King's descendant or those who had taken the title of Manu (which means nothing more than Man).
The Perserver's duty is to Preserve Law and Order of the Realm. The Creator's duty is to create what is required by the Realm - which includes its Laws. The Laws of Manu was created by Lord Brahma but was given to Manu by Maha Vishnu.
meaning to says it was Bharma idea but why Bharma need to give to Vishnu? it better directly give to Manu
Where is the Source by which you quote this? Paste the source link here first. I will look it over.
Also, explain WHAT? What is your question? What is there to explain? I said King Manu (a single person) and the ones you quoted were a group of Manus which could mean either the King's descendant or those who had taken the title of Manu (which means nothing more than Man).
I guess you know nuts on manu, danda few other hindusim until I need to write on danda and few others ....than you goole it or you read my link
in other words...u not hindu..
See ... This is why I asked you for the link for where you had taken the qoute from. Because you have the capability to IGNORE everything and take ONLY THE MOST IDIOTIC STATEMENT in any general statement. The link you provided gave you the proper explaination and all you did was take the last paragraph and make a fool of yourself.
Manu is the father of mankind and from Manu, the word manusya in sanskrit meaning man in English has come. The law given by Manu is so perfect that it can be applicable for all time. It is stated in Sanskrit to be tri-kaladau, which
means "good for the past, present, and future."
In every scripture, especially the Vedic scriptures like the Manu-smrti, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is said to be the ultimate creator. The Manu-smrti is considered the highest Vedic direction to humanity. Manu is the giver of law to mankind, and in the Manu-smrti it is clearly stated that before the creation the entire universal space was darkness, without information and without variety, and was in a state of complete suspension, like a dream. Everything was darkness. The Supreme Personality of Godhead then entered the universal space, and although He is invisible, He created the visible cosmic manifestation. In the material world the Supreme Personality of Godhead is not manifested by His personal presence, but the presence of the cosmic manifestation in different varieties is the proof that everything has been created under His direction. He entered the universe with all creative potencies, and thus He removed the darkness of the unlimited space. http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/6/14-15/en1
In the Bhagavad gita 4.1. Lord Sri Krishna states that he gave the system of yoga, the Bhagavad-gita, first to the sun-god, and the sun-god explained it to Manu, and Manu explained it to Iksvaku, and in that way, by disciplic succession, one speaker after another, this yoga system has been coming down.
In one kalpa, or one day of Brahma, fourteen Manus are manifest. One day of Brahma is calculated at 4 billion 320 million years, and Brahma lives for one hundred years on this scale. Thus if fourteen Manus appear in one day of Brahma, there are 420 Manus during one month of Brahma, and during one year of Brahma there are 5,040 Manus. Since Brahma lives for one hundred of his years, it is calculated that there are 504,000 Manus manifest during the lifetime of one Brahma. Since there are innumerable universes, no one can imagine the totality of the manvantara incarnations. Because all the universes are produced simultaneously by the exhalation of the Maha-Vishnu, no one can begin to calculate how many Manus are manifest at one time. Each Manu, however, is called by a different name. The first Manu is called Svayambhuva, and he is the son of Brahma. The second Manu, Svarocisha, is the son of the predominating deity of fire. The third Manu is Uttama, and he is the son of King Priyavrata. The fourth Manu, Tamasa, is the brother of Uttama. The fifth Manu, called Raivata, and the sixth Manu, Cakshusha, are both brothers of Tamasa, but Cakshusha is the son of Cakshu. The seventh Manu is called Vaivasvata, and he is the son of the sun-god. The eighth Manu is called Savarni, and he is also a son of the sun-god, born of a wife named Chaya. The ninth Manu, Dakshasavarni, is the son of Varuna. The tenth Manu, Brahmasavarni, is the son of Upasloka. Four other Manus are known as Rudrasavarni, Dharmasavarni, Devasavarni and Indrasavarni. http://vedabase.net/tlc/8/en1
Therefore the first King was Manu from whom all of us had descended from. In that context, he can be considered both Noah and Adam (the Savior of Mankind and the Origin of Mankind as well).
The Teachings (Vedas) did not change. It was brought down (by Maha Vishnu in Matsya Avatar) and gave it to the Sun God, who then gave it to Manu who then passed it to Iksvaku, his son. The Vedas passed orally from one generation after another through all the kings whom had been mentioned above. This is also why Hindus pray to the Sun God in the morning as he is the First Teacher of Mankind.
See ... This is why I asked you for the link for where you had taken ...
Therefore the first King was Manu from whom all of us had descended from. In that context, he can be considered both Noah and Adam (the Savior of Mankind and the Origin of Mankind as well).
The Teachings (Vedas) did not change. It was brought down (by Maha Vishnu in Matsya Avatar) and gave it to the Sun God, who then gave it to Manu who then passed it to Iksvaku, his son. The Vedas passed orally from one generation after another through all the kings whom had been mentioned above. This is also why Hindus pray to the Sun God in the morning as he is the First Teacher of Mankind.
interesting...u know beings to study whatever i have posted...now, how we know manu is first man kind...is he kind first creation like adam or first king? if he is king in which state? tami nadu or where? is there any holy book spoke about him? sun god meaning Surya or surya bhagavan?
interesting...u know beings to study whatever i have posted...now, how we know manu is first man kind (1)..is he kind first creation like adam or first king? (2)if he is king in which state? tami nadu or where? (3)is there any holy book spoke about him? (4)sun god meaning Surya or surya bhagavan?
1. First of all, Manu is not the first Man (before the Flood). There was a small group of humans who lived before him (from which he was part of). He had his wife, his family and the World had seven sages who Hindus called Sapta Rishi (in Hindi, it simply means Seven Rishis or Sages). After the Flood, he have become the First King of Man and his descendants continued to lineage of humans (who are here today).
2. No state. There were no borders back then. Humanity will move around and live wherever they please. Most likely Manu also lived in huts and was a chief (tribal king) of his people.
3. Yes, as far as I know only Manu Smirthi. I have not researched deeper into his background.
Don't know exactly. So far, according to Tamil scriptures, the oldest (and the first) language of Mankind was Tamil, spoken on a continent that existed between Sri Lanka to the North, Madagascar to the West and West Australian coast to the south-east. It was called Kumari Kandam and according to ancient Hindus, it is here that Humanity first lived.
Also, I found some additional info. for you since you were so interested :
"To continue with Creation, Brahma gave form to a Man and a Woman. The man was Swayambhu Manu and the Woman was named Shatrupa. Humans are descended from Manu, that is the reason they are known as Manavs."
Swayambhu Manu was the First Man and Shatrupa was the First Woman - Hinduism version of Adam and Eve. Difference between Hinduism and the Bible are (as stated by that source I had pasted) :
While in the former, God deliberately created Adam, in the Latter, Manu emerged ON HIS OWN from the body of Lord Brahma.
In the Western concept, woman was created from the rib of Man(u) but in Hindu tradition, both emerged on their own from the body of Brahma thus, there is an Equality of Sexes.
Again, unlike the Biblical and Islamic accounts, there is no mention of the First Couple being thrown out of the Garden-of-Eden and NO concept of the ORIGINAL SIN.
Neither is there a mention of the DEVIL disguised as a serpent who asked Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit which she passes on to Adam resulting in their expulsion.
Instead, Lord Brahma, quite willingly, asks Manu and Shatrupa to establish their dominion on the Planet Earth. Here, the Biblical record matches with the Puranic story wherein Manu/Adam is made the Lord of all beings on Earth.
So important thing to remember here is that Humanity (according to Hinduism) did not born with Original Sin nor was expelled from the Heavens in shame and disgrace the way the Bible potrayed humanity as.
Don't know exactly. So far, according to Tamil scriptures, the oldest (and the first) language of Mankind was Tamil, spoken on a continent that existed between Sri Lanka to the North, Madagascar to the West and West Australian coast to the south-east. It was called Kumari Kandam and according to ancient Hindus, it is here that Humanity first lived.
yes ancient tamil languages is melody...with respect in calling others ...hmm talking about respect , i guess you need to respect when calling others ...name calling like snake,asshole and etc...is not good...it show your souls in big problem..
Also, I found some additional info. for you since you were so interested :
[/quote]
[quote]Swayambhu Manu was the First Man and Shatrupa was the First Woman - Hinduism version of Adam and Eve. Difference between Hinduism and the Bible are (as stated by that source I had pasted) :
maybe God created black first....if one look at the arfican, they good in many skills...or homo sapiens..i think God like black..
So important thing to remember here is that Humanity (according to Hinduism) did not born with Original Sin nor was expelled from the Heavens in shame and disgrace the way the Bible potrayed humanity as.
so, how sin enter? is first humans sinless?? if no sin why sin happening ? surly it comes from somewhere from first creations??
i guess you need to respect when calling others ...name calling like snake,asshole and etc...is not good...it show your souls in big problem..
Then stop behaving like one.
maybe God created black first....if one look at the arfican, they good in many skills...or homo sapiens..i think God like black..
There is no black, white, brown etc. They are color of the skin which humans took when they migrate to certain parts of the Planet. Africans needs darker skin to bounce back the sunlight (same way you put on sunglasses) because too much sunlight will cause cancer. But people in the North where there is little sunlight require more so their skins become lighter. That is all.
so, how sin enter? is first humans sinless?? if no sin why sin happening ? surly it comes from somewhere from first creations??
People already stated that there is NO ORIGINAL SIN, you go and ask silly questions like this. Go and prove that there is Original Sin first before asking silly questions.
Bottomline - Hinduism DO NOT believe in Original Sin.
There is no black, white, brown etc. They are color of the skin which humans took when they migrate to certain parts of the Planet. Africans needs darker skin to bounce back the sunlight (same way you put on sunglasses) because too much sunlight will cause cancer. But people in the North where there is little sunlight require more so their skins become lighter. That is all.
hmmm ...color of skin? what color???
People already stated that there is NO ORIGINAL SIN, you go and ask silly questions like this. Go and prove that there is Original Sin first before asking silly questions.
if you said no original sin, how you explained women in pain while giving birth and men need to labour to support their family??
in Bible God warn both adam and eve not eat the forbiden fruit.....satan knew is very hard to convience adam because adam as men are strong in nature in physical and faith with God but satan knew he can easily trick women (eve) because soft in nature ...
so the serpent successfully conveince eve ...in order eve to melt adam heart she ask adam to eat the forbiden fruit.....both ate the fruit...This anger God.....God punsihed both...for Adam God punished him to labour to support his family and eve will be in pain while giving birth as reminder to all generations womens....besides, they both thrown out garden of paradise...which i believed in earth.....
Now, does this make sense compare to your story which no original sin???
If humanity is not born in sin, wouldn’t we expect thereto be some people who have “beaten the odds” and never sinned? If we are born innocent and good, why aren’t there at least some people who have continued in this state and remained sinless? Thefact that everybody sins needs some explanation. The best explanation is that we are sinners by nature. Someone might arguethat the reason all people sin is because society is sinful, and thus society renders it impossible for anybody to keep themselvesentirely pure. But that only pushes the question back one step. How did society get sinful in the first place? If people are born morally good, then how did it come about that they congregated into socities that influence all people to sin?
now here some verses that might interest u:
Scripture says that we are born sinners and that we are by nature sinners
Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are “sons of disobedience.” Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all “by nature children of wrath.” If we are all “by nature children of wrath,” it can only be because we are all by nature sinners — for God does not direct His wrath towards those who are not guilty. God did not create the human race sinful, but upright. But we fell into sin and became sinful due to the sin of Adam.
here another which suit you....because calling names and etc...that also sin by nature of your failure:
Jeremiah 17:9 says that “the heart is more deceitful than allelse and is desperately sick; who can understand it?” This seems toassume original sin — wickedness is a property of the human heart.Ecclesiastes 9:3 declares a similar truth: “. . . the hearts of thesons of men are full of evil, and insanity is in their heartsthrough their lives.” Again, the human heart is sinful, andtherefore all humans are sinful.
This forum is NOT HERE to discuss about YOUR CHARACTER. DO NOT WASTE MY TIME WITH YOUR STUPIDITY. Is that understood?
f you said no original sin, how you explained women in pain while giving birth and men need to labour to support their family??
What is there to explain? Women's birth carnal is small so obvious they will be in pain when the baby comes out and men are required to support their family. I don't see this have anything to do with having Sin.
Animals also in pain when giving birth and many of the male animals work to feed their family also. Are you going to say they also have Original Sin?
If we are born innocent and good, why aren’t there at least some people who have continued in this state and remained sinless?
WHO said there aren't any? They are many such people like Mahathma Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Gautama Buddha, many of the Hindu sages and sages from other belief system as well. These people had achieved what Hindus call the State of Moksha where one have become liberated from cycle of Death and Rebirth.
Scripture says that we are born sinners and that we are by nature sinners
Your Christian Scripture is FALSE. It was created simply to justify killing a useless man named Jesus and elevate him to status of god. You want to believe such useless fairy tale and live the rest of your pathetic life believing your are a sinner who cannot change, TO HELL WITH YOU AND YOUR BELIEF. This is Hinduism - take your poisonous belief and GET LOST.
Thisforum is NOT HERE to discuss about YOUR CHARACTER. DO NOT WASTE MY TIME WITHYOUR STUPIDITY. Is that understood?
why called it stupidity? religion forum a place where one should show good example in speech and writings not bad negative remarks , calling names etc. When you failed to understand this , what make you so superior and prefect???
Whatis there to explain? Women's birth carnal is small so obvious they will be inpain when the baby comes out and men are required to support their family. Idon't see this have anything to do with having Sin.
why such pain and the meaning? Hindusim failed again to explain, the Bible clear this issue out that in beginning everything was good till sin enter by not obeying God intructions....than the penatly is punsihment as reminder to all humans generations...someone have change this wonderful meaning to no original sin whic done by the corrupt hands of humans..if one were to question , they stuck and comes stupid reason and no clue...
Animalsalso in pain when giving birth and many of the male animals work to feed theirfamily also. Are you going to say they also have Original Sin?
Many other animals don't give birth, they lay eggs which then develop outside her body and of couse certain animals do not lay eggs. However, for most animals, it is not so painful and traumatic as it is for humans. Because of our large brains, we are born with unusually large heads, which is going to smart a bit on the way out. Also, our upright stance alters the shape of the pelvis and birth canal, meaning that the baby has to turn on its way out - most animals don't have this problem. Also, animals do not advertize the fact that they are in pain by crying out during birth as humans do, since a newborn animal is very vulnerable to predation, as is a mother in the throes of birth and unable to run or defend herself - crying out would alert predators to her presence and distress, making herself and her young a target.
the issue here the pain giving birth by humans more unbearable...the reason all original sin ....simple understanding...
WHOsaid there aren't any? They are many such people like Mahathma Gandhi, MotherTheresa, Gautama Buddha, many of the Hindu sages and sages from other beliefsystem as well. These people had achieved what Hindus call the State of Mokshawhere one have become liberated from cycle of Death and Rebirth.
there is no words hindus...Gautama did not bring hindusim rather meaning life one should handle in eartly life....Mahathama Ghandi -Mother Theresa or few others did not spoke about moksha rather interested in promoting peace-love and kind words...yes kind words not like you, cursed , calling names and etc...such negative thinking and words only leads bad karma and not good for soul.....either rebirth is truth or not, we do not have proof but we can continued to live in this wonderful life to perform positive /or good deeds in many directions....which leads to pure soul
Your Christian Scripture is FALSE. It was created simply to justify killing auseless man named Jesus and elevate him to status of god. You want to believesuch useless fairy tale and live the rest of your pathetic life believing yourare a sinner who cannot change, TO HELL WITH YOU AND YOUR BELIEF. This isHinduism - take your poisonous belief and GET LOST
Proof and evidences show Bible and Jesus was truth base on the findings from archaeology expert. here is the video clips to proof such claimed.
you can google to dig more on this issue that include sodom and gomorah....but you need to dig in sincere and honest way...
another question you fail to answer, how come many languages comes upon earth? what was the first language? does your hindusim have idea? yes, we have the answer. so, what is your answer if one language during ancient times??
TOHELL WITH YOU AND YOUR BELIEF. This is Hinduism - take your poisonous belief
how can i be venom when I am posting base on fact, proof and archology findings??? who is the venom when you and your followers worshipped demon aka asuras? is that too pain to listen to truth???
..if one were to question , they stuck and comes stupid reason and no clue...
Don't talk so much. Answer my question first - Animals also bears pain of childbirth (especially mammals) and its male species have to hunt and gather food for its family as well. Does this mean that animals too have Original Sin?
Many other animals don't give birth ...
ALL mammals except for a small percentage give birth and therefore endures pain of childbirth as well. Other species who are amphibians and reptiles laid eggs and have to care for their young (no childbirth but still have to work for their families as you describe). Are you saying they too have Original Sin?
the issue here the pain giving birth by humans more unbearable...
Nothing is unbearable. Otherwise the human race could not have expanded to 6.4 billion people. IF women had unbearable pains, they could have died or killed off their children when they were born to save them from the same pain they had endured in childbirth. COMMON SENSE.
there is no words hindus ...
Your nonsense is IRRELEVANT. The point here is - there are certain individuals on this World who had born with a more Spiritual attribute than others, who able to continue their Spiritual path and achieve Enlightment. Some like Mother Theresa and Mahatma did it through service to the People (in name of God) and achieved everlasting names in minds of Men. That is a Fact. That is all that relevant.
you can google to dig more on this issue ...
Your bible is nothing more than fairy tale created by Emperor Tiberius and a group of Roman clergies 1,700 years ago who made Jesus a god-like character. It is no different than the comic book you find in stores. And that is the fact.
another question you fail to answer, how come many languages comes upon earth? what was the first language?
Already answered in Post #12.
how can i be venom when I am posting base on fact, proof and archology findings???
You are nothing more than a poisonous snake which already booked itself a place in Hell. You will not find anyone to accompany you to hell here. Begone with your Christian lies and Bible poison.
Don't talk so much. Answer my question first - Animals alsobears pain of childbirth (especially mammals) and its male species have to huntand gather food for its family as well. Does this mean that animals too haveOriginal Sin?
... I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thyconception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall beto thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." (Genesis 3:16)
Here the verses says that God put punishment to eve andit is reminder all womens . why? Already explained in this topic.
Surely the fate of human beings is like that ofthe animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies theother. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals.
~Ecclesiastes 3:19
Nothing is unbearable. Otherwise the human race could nothave expanded to 6.4 billion people. IF women had unbearable pains, they couldhave died or killed off their children when they were born to save them fromthe same pain they had endured in childbirth. COMMON SENSE.
That because you not pussy…so you do not feels suchpain..simple as that
Your nonsense is IRRELEVANT. The point here is - there arecertain individuals on this World who had born with a more Spiritual attributethan others, who able to continue their Spiritual path and achieve Enlightment.Some like Mother Theresa and Mahatma did it through service to the People (inname of God) and achieved everlasting names in minds of Men. That is a Fact.That is all that relevant.
Spirituality exist once humans get closer to God and Holy book….hence makethem humble –peace etc. they understoodthe existences in this earth….to live and contribute positive directions to allwhich leads them freedom in souls….than trap in material world…is not about religion but the works that need tocontribute to humans….yes they pray ….the only irrelevant is believing somethingthat is not proof nor can seen….such as rebirth….which no proof to it….like I said, whether it exist or not,I am not bothered…my purpose in this earth, to work and contribute positivedirections to humans …what happened after my life is solely God secret ….
As for you, till now you talk about rebirth but you not ableto bring out the proof…that what I called IRRELEVANT..
Your bible is nothing more than fairy tale created byEmperor Tiberius and a group of Roman clergies 1,700 years ago who made Jesus agod-like character. It is no different than the comic book you find in stores.And that is the fact.
If Bible is fairy tales, why there is proof and archeology findings?? Unless you areso tempted with the story where Krishnan stealing butter and pimping womentaking bath in river..which kind of bed time stories….so, the choice is yoursto choose for the bed time story…
You are nothing more than a poisonous snake which alreadybooked itself a place in Hell. You will not find anyone to accompany you tohell here. Begone with your Christian lies and Bible poison.
How you justify or come to conclusion in such remarks? Didyour asuras that worshipped by you have again trick to misleads ?
Here the verses says that God put punishment to eve andit is reminder all womens .
That is not god, that is some Roman character Tiberius had invented and you had taken as god. In Hinduism, Lord Bhrama had given Man and Woman blessing and authority over the World (as long as they and their descendant follows Dharma). Why should we accept some egomaniac god who cursed his own creation? Why should we accept a father who cursed his own children to suffer? We reject such notion as a false god.
That because you not pussy…so you do not feels suchpain..simple as that
And how many kids did you bear, you little piece of $hit?
As for you, till now you talk about rebirth but you not ableto bring out the proof…
You believe in a Roman fairy tale of a devil whom you call a god who cursed humanity and ask me for proof? Go to hell with your god, Snake. Such thing is not to be worshiped by Man.
If Bible is fairy tales, why there is proof and archeology findings??
What proof? All you have are words from your fellow devil-worshipers about so-called proof.
How you justify or come to conclusion in such remarks?
Because your attitude shows just how evil Christians are. They come with smile, talk nicely, ask us to explain about our belief system before introducing some Roman $hit about a devil who claimed to be god and f#@ked the whole human race and now we have to kiss its rear end. DISGUSTING LOTS - each and every one of your Christians.
Post time 22-3-2015 03:46 PM
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